Lee crimping problem .223

I have the Lee Pacesetter die set for .223. I loaded about 50 rounds the other day and shot them today, no problems. Tonight I started to load them again and am having a problem trying to get the crimp tight around the channel in the bullet. It is loose. I can move it back and forth in the channel. I have been working on this all evening and can't get it to work properly. Like I said using the same bullets it worked fine the other night using the same specs.
I have measured the opening in the casing before and after the full case resizing die. The sizing die sized the opening to .219. Of course the bullet will not fit in the opening without the bullet seater. I have adjusted the crimping die all night and can't get it to crimp at the bullet channel. I will crimp outside the channel but when I get the proper cartridge length it has to crimp at the channel. The Lee instructions say I need the channel for the die to work.
When I adjust the die to try to make it tighter it crushed the shoulder of the casing. I can't find a happy medium.

Ok I have been working on this for hours. My brain is fried but I can't figure what I am doing wrong. It's probably something stupid but I can't figure it out. Just when I thing I may have it I crush another casing.

Has anyone else had this problem and if so how did you solve it?

thanks for the help

It is nothing more or less than an adjustment problem. The solution is re-read the instructions as many times as necessary until you truly understand what they are saying.

I suspect you are adjusting the seating depth and then simply screwing the die in farther to crimp, this doesn't, as you have discovered. Adjust the seating depth first, back the seating stem out and then set the die body to the proper crimp. After this is done screw the seating stem down, with the crimped cartridge still fully in the die, until it is firmly against the bullet. You may still have to make very minor adjustments, but this will get you very close.

There are two other solutions. First seat and crimp separately. If you feel you have to crimp this is the best solution. The second is simply do not crimp unless there is a real need. If you are shooting a semi-automatic gun then crimping may be needed. If you are shooting a single shot of any type, a bolt action or slide action gun there is no reason to crimp.

If this is a standard seating/crimping die, set the OAL with a dummy round. Screw the seating stem out. Screw the die in until you get a light crimp. A heavy crimp isn't really needed with a 223. Lock the die down. With the dummy round at top dead center screw the seating stem in until it makes contact with the bullet.

If you're loading these for a bolt action, falling block, or break action you don't need to crimp. Neck tension is all you need. You also don't necessarily have to use the cannelure. You have the option of adjusting the OAL to fit your rifle's chamber.

Thanks guys

Well the problem is I can't get the crimp to crimp the bullet in the channel. I've been all through adjusting every which way. I read and adjusted all the dies many times.

This is the problem. I adjust according to the instructions. I screw the crimping die down until it touches the shell casing. I want a crimp so I lower the shell and screw the die in another 1/4 turn. Then I made sure the bullet seater is backed out far enough as not to seat the bullet all the way. I put the bullet on the casing and raise the shell and bullet into the die. When I adjust the bullet seater to the proper OAL the opening of the case is at the channel. I can move the bullet in the channel back and forth. It is crimped enough to keep it from pulling out of the casing but not enough to hold the bullet in position. I can slide it back and forth in the channel. When I screw the crimp part of the die down a little more to "tweek" the crimp it crushes the shell. I can't seem to find out how to get the crimp tight in the channel without distorting the brass. The bullet won't stay put long enough to go the the factory crimp die. I've thrown out about 10 cases that have been crushed trying to get the crimp right.

If you are reloading for regular .223 and have the Pacesetter dies it should be a three die set with a Factory Crimp die. The collet in the FCD might be stuck closed. According to the Lee web site .223 Remington is a three die set. Don

Pacesetter Dies 223 Rem - Lee Precision

The two die set is for .223 WSSM

2 Die Set 223 Wssm - Lee Precision

Your description doesn't sound right. Srew the die down til it touches the case then backoff a full turn. Now start running the seating stem dow til the seating depth is correct. Back off on the seating stemm a cople turns. Now with the depth correct ease the crimper die dow til its correct. Now adjust the seater stem down til it touches the bullet. OR just forget about the crimp die. Been shooting an AR in competition for over 20 years. Never crimped a single round.

Thumbs,

Let's try again. For clarification, are you saying that when seated the bullet is tight in the case and doesn't move, but when you crimp it becomes loose so the bullet is then free to move the width of the cannellure retained only by the crimp? Am I understanding what you are saying correctly? If this is correct, then you are over crimping, by a lot!

The bullet is retained in the case by neck tension. The only function of the crimp is to prevent the bullet from being pushed down in the case during functioning and feeding. This is why all military ammunition is crimped. For most purposes there is no reason to crimp rifle ammunition, especially for a cartridge that generates as little recoil as any .22 center-fire.

You are, obviously, inexperienced in reloading. This isn't meant as criticism, but it it apparent from the direction of the conversation. I have had the same conversation with new loaders dozens of times over the past 50+ years I have been reloading. Others who have responded probably have quite a bit of experience also, and we are all telling you the same thing! That should be a hint to you. We are all trying to help you and understand the proper procedures, you should listen. It is exceedingly poor form to ask for assistance and then arguing with the people who have responded.

The only way any of us could give you more help would be to sit down with you at the bench and show you what we are talking about, and not being in close proximity so far as I can know, that isn't possible. I can guarantee that many on this forum would be more than happy to do this though.

If I sounded like I was being confrontational I apologize profusely. This was and is not my intent. I think what may have happened is in my frustration in trying to figure this thing out it may have come across that way. Again I am looking for help not trying to dispute anything anyone may offer. I will try anything.

And yes I am still wet behind the ears on rifle stuff. I know not of what I speak. I have no past experience with loading for rifle. Whatever the problem is it very well may be a question of inexperience. Like you say you could probably sit down at my bench and find the problem before you loaded your first case. I just don't have that exp.

This is the Pasesetter set with the three die set. It has the full case sizing and decaping die, bullet seating die with crimp(I do not use the crimp since the set comes with the factory crimp die.) I can't get to the factory crimp die because the bullet is not held fast in the casing and moves before I can get it to the factory crimp.

Let me try to explain what I am doing. I am taking the once fired Federal case and checking the length. Most of the time it is a bit undersize and does not require trimming. I have measured the ID of the neck and am getting a reading of .226. If I take a bullet at this time it will, and should, slide in and out of the neck of the caseing. Now I take the casing and put it into the first stage, the full case sizing and depriming stage. I run the case into the die all the way and out. I feel resistance as though something is happening in the die. Now I check the ID once again and get .220. I am told this may even be a bit tight. Anyway I then go to the bullet seating stage. (Remember I am not loading the casing just trying to seat the bullet properly. So priming and adding powder is not necessary.) I am using Hornaby 55gr SP bullets with a cannellure. I don't want a crimp on this stage so I set the die for no crimp. I can not start the bullet in the case by hand so I have to guide the bullet all the way into the die. Since the bullet seat is not adjusted to the proper depth it puts the bullet in the case but not far enough for proper OAL. I then adjust the seating die,very slowly, step by step to get it to the proper depth. Each step along the way I check the OAL and creep toward the proper length. I check the bullet each time and it "seems" tight or snug in the neck. I can not move the bullet in the neck. When I reach the proper OAL it puts the top of the neck for the casing in the center of the cannellure. When this happens the bullet is loose in the casing. If I shake it it will rattle in the cannellure. Obviously this is not right. I can't even get it to the "factory crimp" die before the bullet moves in the cannellure. It's as thought the neck of the casing is not uniform. It's seems as thought the neck is smaller at the end and larger down the neck. I have checked the diameter of the decapper, sizer. and the diameter seems to be about .222. It seems that maybe the full length sizer is not sizing the neck down enough so that the sizer can not open the diameter to the proper size. I don't have a clue as to why the mouth of the neck is tighter.

Again I apologize if I came across poorly. Being frustrated is not an excuse. The problem with typing is you only see the printed word and not the intent of the dialog. I do not know what is wrong and do not dispute any help I may get. If you tell me to do something I will try it and tell you what the results were. Heck I still say Sir, Mam please and thank you. And I'm 65.

Yesterday I called Lee. The long and the short of the conversation is this should not happen. The bullet should be able to be seated anywhere along the bullet and the neck being at the cannellure is no exception. They say to send the set back with case examples and they will try to figure it out. I just bought the set so I have exchanged them at Cabela's where I bought the last week. The new dies are still in the box I have not even taken the tape of the container as of yet.

Sorry for the long post but it takes a long one to try to give you as much information as possible.

thanks guys I really want your help and don't mean to sound as though I am disputing your suggestions.

I am confused. You state you loaded and shot 50 rounds and all was well.

What changed between then and now?

Did you full length size the brass or is this different brass?. You say you adjusted the die and crush the cases. Did you adjust the die with the big lock nut or with the knob on top?

Screw the whole resizing die in until it hits the shell holder. Now lower the ram and turn it in 1/4 or a bit more in. Tighten the lock nut. Resize a case.

Now screw in the bullet seating die until it hits the shell holder, back out the whole die 1/2 turn. Tighten the lock nut. The adjustment knob should be almost all the way out.

Now hold a bullet on the case mouth and guide it up into the die. Turn the thumb knob on top to gradually seat the bullet to the depth you want it( you state your bullets have a cannelure)

Adjusting the bullet seating knob (on top) should not crush a case. Something is not adjusted right.

I have the same dies and the neck sizing die. Are you shooting a semi auto or a bolt action??

overcrimping

This by ALK8944

"Let's try again. For clarification, are you saying that when seated the bullet is tight in the case and doesn't move, but when you crimp it becomes loose so the bullet is then free to move the width of the cannellure retained only by the crimp? Am I understanding what you are saying correctly? If this is correct, then you are over crimping, by a lot!"

My son was having this exact same problem. He said it was the die. I sat down and loaded two dummy rounds on his die set. Tight as can be on the bullets.

When you overcrimp the case is being pushed down and the brass releases the neck tension.

Your cases may vary in length adding to the problem.
Get a case trimmer or at the very least sort cases by length if you are trying to crimp into the cannelure. There is very little difference in force required to seat and crimp as opposed to too much crimp.

The other posters are really doing a good job of trying to help you.

My compliments to them all.

Bruce

Hey all, I'm new here & this post catch my eye.

I've had similar problems using non-cannellure bullets with 1xfired brass. I just couldn't get a tight enough crimp that the bullet didn't move forward when it went into the battery.

My problem wasn't my dies - it was the neck of the 1xfired brass. It had hardened to the point when crimped it wouldn't hold correctly.

With cannellured bullets - no biggie, but I also load hot RDs with 75gr & 77gr bullets(non-cannellure) & this movement became a major issue. The bullets actually stopped moving forward when the hit the rifling of the BBL - not good!

I had 3 choices;
use new brass - not really an option, anneal all my brass - which worked but to time/cost inefficient, or cannellure all my bullets - which I intend to do for all my 75gr & 77gr.

I don't know if this is actually your problem but it might be something to consider.

Rule3 said:

I am confused. You state you loaded and shot 50 rounds and all was well.

What changed between then and now?

Did you full length size the brass or is this different brass?. You say you adjusted the die and crush the cases. Did you adjust the die with the big lock nut or with the knob on top?

Screw the whole resizing die in until it hits the shell holder. Now lower the ram and turn it in 1/4 or a bit more in. Tighten the lock nut. Resize a case.

Now screw in the bullet seating die until it hits the shell holder, back out the whole die 1/2 turn. Tighten the lock nut. The adjustment knob should be almost all the way out.

Now hold a bullet on the case mouth and guide it up into the die. Turn the thumb knob on top to gradually seat the bullet to the depth you want it( you state your bullets have a cannelure)

Adjusting the bullet seating knob (on top) should not crush a case. Something is not adjusted right.

I have the same dies and the neck sizing die. Are you shooting a semi auto or a bolt action??

Click to expand...

Yes me too thanks all for the continuing help.

Yes I did load 50 rounds but they were Hornaby Vmax without the cannellure. They seemed fine but I think mabe they had the same problem but because they didn't have the cannelure the top of the casing "bit" the bullet and it seemed as though it was seated right when in fact I dough it. I think it was only held at the top of the neck and not by the complete throat.

The only change was I went from the Hornaby Vmax bullet to the Hornaby SP with the cannellure.

Yes I length sized the brass. Now most ran a little shorter than the length the Lee trimmer is set for. Not a lot but they are shorter. I adjusted the bullet with the crimp die, originally, screwing in the entire die until it touched the top of the case then 1/4 turn more. Then I put the bullet on the case and guided it into the die and adjusted the bullet seating knob down, checking depth until it was the proper oal. The bullet seemed tight all the way down until it got to the cannellure. At that point it became obvious the neck was not tight enough to hold the bullet. Only the mouth of the neck would grip the bullet. When the bullet reached the cannellure it then became loose. I couldn't pull the bullet out of the cannellure but it will rattle in the cannellure. The neck of the casing is not tight around the bullet.

Yes your right the seating knob didn't crush the case. I thought if I adjusted the entire die down thinking it would crimp the neck tighter. In fact that was wrong and it just crushed the case and did not make the neck tighter.

I am shooting a semi, AR.

Hope this helps and thanks

Bruce Lee M said:

This by ALK8944

"Let's try again. For clarification, are you saying that when seated the bullet is tight in the case and doesn't move, but when you crimp it becomes loose so the bullet is then free to move the width of the cannellure retained only by the crimp? Am I understanding what you are saying correctly? If this is correct, then you are over crimping, by a lot!"

My son was having this exact same problem. He said it was the die. I sat down and loaded two dummy rounds on his die set. Tight as can be on the bullets.

When you overcrimp the case is being pushed down and the brass releases the neck tension.

Your cases may vary in length adding to the problem.
Get a case trimmer or at the very least sort cases by length if you are trying to crimp into the cannelure. There is very little difference in force required to seat and crimp as opposed to too much crimp.

The other posters are really doing a good job of trying to help you.

My compliments to them all.

Bruce

Click to expand...

Yes, it seems as though the bullet is only crimped at the top of the case. It seems like the neck of the case is not tight around the bullet at all, in fact even after crimping it's way to loose.

Very well may be me. I am far from making a mistake. My problem, now, is trying to find my problem. What you are saying about "bulging" the case with the crimp is well worth looking into. It makes sense. The cases are a little different in length. The trimmer I am using now is a Lee that only cuts the case if it is longer than the shaft on the trimmer. Most of the cases are very close to the same length. I have tried severial cases though with the same results.

Sorry your son had the same problem but maybe I am doing the same exact thing.

Just thought of something. I did try it without a crimp. I adjusted the bullet seat die for no crimp. I had the same results, the bullet was tight until it got to the cannellure then it rattled in the "grove".

ogive

If you are still overcrimping then you may notice that the shoulder of the case has set back. You will see a slight bulge at the shoulder as compared to a new round. Anytime the shoulder is pushed back it causes a headspace problem. The rounds may also not chamber or require extra force to chamber.

Another thing to check is the bullet ogive. That is the curvature along the sides of the bullet. If the ogive is long then the neck cannot keep tension on the bullet. I had this problem with a bullet brand years ago. To check the ogive just place the bullet into your calipers to see how far the sides are straight. If the ogive is in the seated area then I suggest seating the bullet as long as possible and forget about the cannelure.
A properly seated bullet will stay in the case and function properly.

Lastly remember it takes very little force to seat and crimp a bullet. Too much pressure will cause the problems you have experienced.
Small case, small bullet and big press equals a light touch when seating.

Bruce

Bruce

Thanks. Let me see if I get this right. The ogive is the straightness of the shaft of the bullet right? In other words my measurements should be constant along the shaft. Hummm didn't check that either.

As I said earlier I took the original dies back and exchanged them for a new set. I will start all over and try it agian. It will be interesting to see if I continue to have the same problem. I thought since Lee Percussion suggested I send the dies back with examples it may be a good time to replace the dies. Anyway I'll try again tomorrow. Of course I will check all the suggestions as I go along and let you know what I find out. It very well may be me. We will see.

thanks guys

Actually the ogive is the curved part of the bullet.
If the curved part goes into the case then the reduced diameter area cannot hold the case neck tension.
I hope that this helps.
Your loading manual should have the definition of ogive.
Good luck. You will get past this problem eventually.

Bruce

"I adjusted the bullet with the crimp die, originally, screwing in the entire die until it touched the top of the case then 1/4 turn more. Then I put the bullet on the case and guided it into the die and adjusted the bullet seating knob down, checking depth until it was the proper oal."

Therein lies your problem, you are crimping the brass (touching the case, then 1/4 turn more) before you even insert a bullet. In effect, you are closing the case mouth, then setting a bullet (now larger diameter than the opening of the case mouth) on top and forcing it down into the case, thereby distorting the entire case mouth. From your statement, it sounds as though you left the die set that way. Try backing off the seating die body in the press until you have NO contact with the brass, then set your OAL. Leave the die body at that setting (do not screw it in again, there is no need to add a crimp at this point). I believe you will find your bullets will pretty much stay put. If you want to crimp, use the FCD in the next step, just make sure you set it up IAW Lee's instructions. Hope this helps.

Thanks again. Sounds like we are gettin close. Good things to check out. I really think things will work out tomorrow. Like you said I may have a step backwards.

I just want to suggest something you might not be doing. Are you chamfering the inside of your case mouth so the bullet can get started in? If not this could crush your case when you seat the bullet. Don