SP vs. SPM Primers with VIHTAVUORI Powders

HorizontalMike

HorizontalMike

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I spent an entire afternoon doing an Internet search on the topic and came away just as confused as when I started.

Proposed use... .357 Magnum (S&W 686), VIHTAVUORI N105, with CCI #550 Small Pistol Magnum primers.

VIHTAVUORI recommends using ONLY standard Small Pistol primers (SP) with their powders.

There appears to be roughly equal numbers of folks on either side of the argument who say it is OK or NOT OK to use Small Pistol Magnum (SPM) primers with VIHTAVUORI powders. Several folks say they have used such a combination and like the results and one said they saw a surprising rise in pressure(but without any measurements/facts).

I recently ordered and received 5k CCI #550 primers, and 10lb of VV N105, thus my conundrum... :confused:

Who has used SPM primers with VIHTAVUORI powder, and with what results?
 
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I have used them with no issues. I started a little light and worked up. I did see a rise in pressure. That's why I started low.
Last year during the shortage I was using small rifle primers. Just start low.
 
I use VV N110 in my 686s with Federal magnum primers. I didn't choose this combination on my own, but after consulting component manufacturers on the phone, as well as loading manuals in my possession. The manufacturers agreed that the magnum primer would provide better ignition of this particular powder, particularly in colder weather. I use a stout load(.4gr under max), but it shows no evidence of excessive pressure. My chronograph also indicated that velocities are well within the range predicted in the manuals.

I'm not an expert, I'm just telling you my experience. I don't know about N105, but N110 is a stick powder, which I gathered was the reason a hotter primer was preferable.

Regards,
Andy
 
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I was originally planning on starting with the Vihtavuori data set (11.7 to 12.4gr) and work up from there, however it sounds more prudent to start with the lowest of the low from those listed below, 10.5gr.

:confused: Min. to Max :confused:
11.7gr to 12.4gr --Vihtavuori data 1401--1466fps
10.9gr to 11.9gr --Lee Modern Reloading 1320--1417fps
10.5gr to 11.7gr --Handloads.com citing Vihtavuori xxxx--1399fps

ANDY: "I don't know about N105, but N110 is a stick powder, which I gathered was the reason a hotter primer was preferable."
Yes N105 is also a stick powder.

OK, thanks guys! Both reasons/rationale sounds logical to me. And yes, I'll start low... ;)
 
Mike,

I'm guessing that you'll end up using a slightly lower charge than you would with a standard primer, to accommodate the higher pressure generated by the magnum primer. We're talking here about pistol powders on the slower end of the burn rate chart, which make them more compatible with either type primer. I wouldn't use a magnum primer with faster-burning powders such as Bullseye or similar ones, since they quickly reach peak pressure. A magnum primer in such a case probably would risk generating a hazardous spike.

But, as I said, I'm not an expert. Others here may come along and offer some corrections. But I'm confident that you'll be OK as long as you do the standard load tests to monitor pressure signs.

Best wishes,
Andy
 
snowman said:
Mike,

I'm guessing that you'll end up using a slightly lower charge than you would with a standard primer, to accommodate the higher pressure generated by the magnum primer. We're talking here about pistol powders on the slower end of the burn rate chart, which make them more compatible with either type primer. I wouldn't use a magnum primer with faster-burning powders such as Bullseye or similar ones, since they quickly reach peak pressure. A magnum primer in such a case probably would risk generating a hazardous spike...
Best wishes,
Andy
Click to expand...

Understand that I have yet to reload a single cartridge thus far...
That said, according to Lyman's 49th they call for exactly that for .357 bullets 146gr and lighter (Bullseye+SPM primers). You do make a good point though as far as using less powder and working up from there. :) This actually gives me added faith that I am NOT making a major error, just as long as I START at the lowest recommended powder levels and build my own loading data.

Somehow, contemplating my first reloading session, I keep hearing Madonna singing in the background...

"Woo ew owah... Like a Vegan, eating meat for the very first time... Like a Vegan... Ow ew Oh... Like a Vegan..." ;););)
 
Personally, on a new powder/primer combination, I'd be inclined to follow the powder manufacturers recommendations. I don't use VV powders (mainly because I've never found the one I want to try in stock :eek:(3N37)), but some of the open class guys I shoot with use VV powder in their compensated 38 Supers and in discussions I get the distinct impression that it's great powder but can be touchy when one gets to the limits (high and low) of the recommended load. Too low and they have problems with insufficient burning and squibs. Keep in mind this is second hand information, just wanted to pass it on. Stay safe:D
 
I have never used magnum primers with VV powders.
I use N320 in several calibers at both target, min and max loads. I have never used a magnum primer and all of the VV data is for standard primers. I chrono all my loads and todate in 5 calibers, I have had NO surprises. I think reloading is a business of no surprises and VV states DO NOT ATTEMPT ANY EXTRAPOLATIONS. PLEASE FOLLOW THE DATA AS WRITTEN. I tend to agree with the manufacturers recommendations, they seem to know best, no matter what some internet guru's state. I vote for getting some standard pistol primers.
Stu
 
stu1ritter said:
I chrono all my loads and to date . . ., I have had NO surprises.

Stu
Click to expand...


And that would be true in my case also, Stu. I just load one caliber, but I've gone through thousands of rounds of it.

Having said that, I would generally agree with your post. At the time I was preparing a load, I consulted with the people at Sierra, who indicated that they had used magnum primers for their testing and recommended them for N110. My memory is failing me, but I think that at the time I just respected their professional judgment and followed their recommendation on that basis. Since I've had no problems with their load, I've used it ever since. If I had to do it over, I probably would have followed your recommendation.

Regards,
Andy
 
According to my chroni the the CCI standard small pistol primers do best with my Tin Star powder...lower velocity spread. Although Vihtavouri recommends using Small Rifle primers with Tin Star... Wolf Small Rifle primers gave higher velocity spread.
 
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The earlier V V loading booklets used wsr primers. Believe they later changed to small pistol Magnum primers. Speer 14 specifically uses regular small pistol primers, but warns magnum primers will increase pressures. One of many reasons differing manuals are all over the map. Some may just want to stick with one primer for one specific cartridge.

Use V V N110 in 357 with Fed small pistol primers, and use Speer's data. Doesn't mean magnum primers won't work just as well with slightly reduced charges. Sometimes magnum primers come in handy just to reach max potential with some case filling loads.

Use N105 in midrange 44 mag loads, with very good results. Sometimes the only way to know is to try, there ain't no absolutes. pays to have lots of manuals, and solicit lots of opinions when ya get the resources and time.
 
zeke said:
The earlier V V loading booklets used wsr primers. Believe they later changed to small pistol Magnum primers. Speer 14 specifically uses regular small pistol primers, but warns magnum primers will increase pressures. One of many reasons differing manuals are all over the map. Some may just want to stick with one primer for one specific cartridge...

...Sometimes the only way to know is to try, there ain't no absolutes. pays to have lots of manuals, and solicit lots of opinions when ya get the resources and time.
Click to expand...

Sticking with a single "primer type" sure seems to be what many, reloading manual authors are doing, at least on a "per bullet/weight" basis. That simplifies tables/data for any given bullet.

FWIW, staring me right in the face in the Lyman's 49th, for my chosen .357 158gr XTP with SPM primers, is the loading data for Vihtavuori N110 (page 357 bottom right corner).

While NOT exactly N105, it does show loading data for VV powder + SPM (CCI #550) primers.

PLUS, considering the manufacturer's (Vihtavuori) explanation of the development of the N105 powder: "...This special powder has a burning rate between N350 and N110..." It sure appears to me that N105 can be safely worked up using SPM primers. Am I wrong here? :confused:

Lacking a chronograph (since I am very new at this), it looks like I'll have to go with the visual inspection route that the Lee Manual suggests:
flattened.jpg
 
HorizontalMike said:
I was originally planning on starting with the Vihtavuori data set (11.7 to 12.4gr) and work up from there, however it sounds more prudent to start with the lowest of the low from those listed below, 10.5gr.

:confused: Min. to Max :confused:
11.7gr to 12.4gr --Vihtavuori data 1401--1466fps
10.9gr to 11.9gr --Lee Modern Reloading 1320--1417fps
10.5gr to 11.7gr --Handloads.com citing Vihtavuori xxxx--1399fps

ANDY: "I don't know about N105, but N110 is a stick powder, which I gathered was the reason a hotter primer was preferable."
Yes N105 is also a stick powder.

OK, thanks guys! Both reasons/rationale sounds logical to me. And yes, I'll start low... ;)
Click to expand...

Doesn't Vihtavuori use CIP specs in their 357 magnum load data? (max of 43511 PSI vs 35000 PSI for SAMMI) Could be why they show a much higher charge than the other sources. A magnum primer should give higher pressures anyway so be prudent.
 
Mike,

Thanks for continuing the discussion; I'm learning along with you. Your quote from the Lyman data tends to confirm that magnum primers aren't a hazard with Vihtavuori as long as pressures are monitored in load development, as with every other factor. Both Sierra(whose data I used) and Lyman have published/are publishing loads tested with them, which I wouldn't think they would dare do if the magnums presented a hazard.

The flattened primer is useful in monitoring pressures if it is a harder one like the CCI; my soft Federals flatten well within safe pressure range. Tool marks from the firing pin bushing on the case head is another useful sign, but not definitive. Definitely back off the charge if the cases don't extract easily.

As many here have said, chronograph readings are the most reliable indicator. If you can swing it, I would encourage getting one.

Best wishes in your new endeavor,
Andy
 
Several of V V's pistol loads from the earlier booklets were significantly reduced, when reportedly subjected to different standards. Condition that on I am not familiar with the last several versions of V V manuals.

Am not in habit of daring some of their max listed loads in the older booklet series.

Reading pistol primers may indicate increasing pressures, but are not a reliable method of judging normal or excessive pressure.

If someone gets serious about loading close to the top, a chronograph may be a wise investment.
 
zeke said:
...If someone gets serious about loading close to the top, a chronograph may be a wise investment.
Click to expand...

Not looking to max anything out at this point, just starting the journey...;) Anything middle of the road will do for now. Want to knock a few hundred rounds before even thinking of max loads.
 
New ProChrono on the way!

Well, I broke down and ordered the Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph after much cajoling... ;)

Got it shipped (with extra rods/defusers) for just $122 from Midway. Should be here in less than a week.

FWIW, now I am planning on building a short 10-15yd testing range in my driveway and against a concrete wall. I have a 1/2inch steel plate 2ft x 3ft that I will build a frame for this plate to be mounted at a 45-degree angle and then I will fill the bottom with sand to catch the deflected splatter. I figure side frame will be multiple 2x4s in a solid wall to completely capture any remaining debris. Will be shooting from the far end of the garage to about 5yd outside into the target. NOT using for target practice, ONLY for working up basic safe loads on the .357 and .222 Remington before heading to the range for accuracy testing of both.

Already cleared this with the local county sheriff. I live in a rural sub-division in a county of 700 sq.mi. and less than 11k people, or about 15/sq.mi. density. That doesn't mean that some newly transplanted city slicker won't B&M, but I wanted to clear it with the LEOs. ;)
 
I've loaded 357 for a long time . I handload with cast bullets . The Thomphson designed Lyman 358156 for hot , the Lyman ( Keith ) 358429 for medium hot & the 358477 for medium . I've used 2400 for most loads for years , Unique for the lighter end . Can't speak for VV N110 or 105 . Years ago everyone used magnum primers ( I still would for W296 / H110 & IMR or H4227 or cold weather hunting loads ) . Now days I use Fed100 for 90% of my 2400 / Unique loads . For my carry guns I buy factory 125 JHP's either Federal or Rem GS . If you drop the hammer on a 2 legged varmit with handloads expect to get sued now days .
 
"If you drop the hammer on a 2 legged varmit with handloads expect to get sued now days ".

How can they sue you if they don't have any of the bullets used...?? !!

Hand the police the gun with "Just" the empty cases.....

You do not have to say what ammo was used before getting legal help.
 
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