454 Casull load data questions

I am a new proud owner of a 460XVR PC 10.5, and LOVE it! Been reading around on this forum and others for months leading up to the purchase. Now, I am a new member to this site and first posting.

Background:
Been reloading for my 40 S&W for about 2 years, thousands of rounds, no problems.
Now that I'm staring to reload for the 460...man is this a different world! Of the three options, I started with the 45LC, and have some really nice loads developed from the Lyman and the Hornady manuals. Working my way up, learning as I go as this is quite a different animal than the 40 S&W!

Problem:
Now I've started playing with the 454 Casull and haven't fired any rounds yet as I was a bit concerned with a couple observations. Better safe than sorry is my view...

Anyways, in the Hornady 9th edition for 2400 + SR primer + 240 XTP MAG, they have a STARTING load of 30.0 grains! But, for example, looking at the FA site, they are listing 30 grains as the MAX load of the 454 ??!!?? (Looking at the FA site as it is a similar gun)

So I took a 454 case and loaded it with 30 grains and was quite surprised when I saw how full it was. If I were to seat a 240 XTP MAG in there, it would definitely be a compressed load. then I went ahead and loaded a case with the Hornady MAX load and...well, there just is no way I would be comfortable going further seating let alone firing that load.

So, going back, my reloading past has always been in 40 S&W, loading something like 4.7 grains of Unique and there was plenty of room left over in the case. Now starting with the 454 and 2400, it just doesn't seem right.

Questions:
1) Is the Hornady 9th edition correct in their starting and MAX values for the 240 XTP MAG?

2) Am I just not used to what to expect in loading the 454 Casull and compressed loads are normal?

3) Looking in the Lyman 3rd edition (Pistol and Revolver Handbook), using the same OAL as the Hornady 9th Edition, they also have a 240 grain JHP load data. Is it safe to say that this would be the same as the Hornady 240 XTP MAG?

4) If the answer to #3 is yes, then why do they show such dramatically different load data, where the MAX in the Lyman manual is 29.5, this being right under the Hornady STARTING load?

5) Similar case going to the Alliant site and looking up their loads for 454 Casull, but they have a 250 grain Speer GDHP, but an OAL that is shorter than the Hornady and Lyman data. Their MAX is at 26 grains of 2400.

6) I understand that the shorter case from #5 will result in less power being needed for the equivalent result. But by that much?!?

Sorry if these questions have been answered before, I searched around on this site as well as Googling for this, but have not found a definitive answer. Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give!

A Freedom Arms is not similar to a SW 460! Their data is specific for their guns. (They specifically state this)Even though the SW 460 is a beefy gun the FA are even stronger.

My suggestion is use the Hornady START load.

The slow burning powders like 2400 and H110 will fill the cases up to near max capacity .

You can not compare COL of different bullets. XTP and GD are entirely different bullets. I load the 460 and Ruger only 45 Colt in my SW 460.

All tests will vary depending on when, how, what equipment, test barrel or real gun etc, etc.

I only have Hornady #8 and it only lists a 240 XTP so I can not compare to a 250 XTP.

Hi ECA-460 & Welcome to the Forum!

You asked a lot of questions, & there's a lot of variables, but I'll add a bit to what Rule said.

First, the HDY 240 XTP-MAG & the 250 XTP have differences beyond the weight. The XTP-MAG is rated to 2200fps while the XTP is rated to 1600fps. While their bullet overall lengths (BOL) are close, .679" vs .665", their seating depth (SD) is different, .292" to .365" (240 vs 250gr) which affects powder capacity.

Hornady doesn't list the 250XTP in the 454C or 460 data because of the bullet's rating.

I have loaded the 250 XTP in the 454C case using 2400, with CCI 400, & 29.5gr was the highest I went & you are correct, that was 100% full, to the bottom of the seated bullet. (I generally stay away from compressed loads so I didn't go higher.)

I've never used the 240XTP in the 454C, only the 460Mag, but Hornady #8's max of 33.5gr/2400 appears likely a compressed load, but I can't say for sure. I use the caliper's extension/tail to verify the depth from the case mouth to powder level & compare it to the bullet's seating depth to confirm if it's compressed or not.

Alliant & Speer #14 list their 250GDHP in the 454C at 26.0gr/2400 max but that is also shown as a Reduced Load (see their note) because the bullet construction isn't rated for a max load of powder. The 300GDHP is the only one listed loaded to Full Power (see their note) & it uses 27.0gr/2400 max.

I have loaded Starline 45 Colt brass & 250XTP with 26.0gr/2400 (100% full) & CCI300, for use ONLY in a 454 Super Redhawk, or 460XVR, & it's serious power from a 45 Colt case. No problem for S-L brass.

Comparing COAL is less important than comparing SD. You can have a longer COAL but, because of the bullets shape/construction, have a small SD & have more case capacity. Hornady's FTX bullets are usually like this. Their BOL is long for weight but their SD is smaller, ie: 300FTX: .932" BOL & .348" SD.

While I have a lot of 45 Colt & 454C cases from when I had the SRH, I only load/shoot 460Mag cases in my XVR now. (Used all my hot 45 Colt loads so they wouldn't accidently get in my M25-13). They're a lot shorter in the 460 chamber (almost 1/2") & leave residue that's not good if you shoot a 460 without cleaning them good.

Hope this helped.

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Thank you both for the information you have given. Good to hear that the case was nearly filled to capacity for you as well. It seemed odd to me for sure. I will try some at the starting load with the 240 XTP MAG and see how they perform at the range.

Pistols and Revolvers

460 S&W Magnum

• 250 gr Speer GDHP
• 2400 31.0 grains
• Fed 210 primer
• Minimum COL = 2.09
• Velocity = 1,553 fps

This was copied from the Alliant Powder web site.

My right hand is just screaming, "Why, Why? "

Congratulations on your new gun.

Always start with the "start" values and work your load up, regardless of caliber. All load data is specific to the test conditions and is provided as an educated guide. The same results require the exact same conditions. (good advise from Bluedot37)

Compressed powder is not uncommon in the 460 for several of commonly used powders, H110 / 296 in particular.

Use caution in your bullet selection, bullets used in APC are not suitable for 460 velocities- early on I separated a few jackets and was lucky (good advise from Bluedot37).

You did not mention which 460 you have, some 460s have tighter throats which translate to lower max charge weights those guns will shoot.

If you are not aware you should thoroughly clean your cylinder after shooting the shorter cartridges. The residue left may cause sticky extraction or difficultly in loading the cylinder when shooting the longer cartridges.

You can develop reduced loads in 460 brass and save yourself a lot of cleaning.

Good luck and be safe.
Ruggy

Engineer1911 said:

Pistols and Revolvers

460 S&W Magnum

• 250 gr Speer GDHP
• 2400 31.0 grains
• Fed 210 primer
• Minimum COL = 2.09
• Velocity = 1,553 fps

This was copied from the Alliant Powder web site.

My right hand is just screaming, "Why, Why? "

Click to expand...

That is a reduced recoil load. If your hand is screaming at that one, you've got to wonder what it's going to say to a full house .460 load. Truth be told, that with the gun the OP has, the recoil is not going to be extreme, even with legitimate .460 loads. Ruger SAs in .454 and snub nosed .44s will hurt a 'ell of a lot more.

ruggyh said:

You did not mention which 460 you have, some 460s have tighter throats which translate to lower max charge weights those guns will shoot.



You can develop reduced loads in 460 brass and save yourself a lot of cleaning.

Click to expand...

The OP stated he has the 10.5'' PC model, similar to me. Mine has tight throats.

The use of .460 brass for reduced loads is definitely the way to go. I've found that Starline brass is only good for maybe 5-6 full house .460 loadings, Hornady brass even less. After that, mine gets delegated to reduced loads.

Yes, I have the 10.5 PC, and have not fired any 460's yet, just 45LC and the Hornady XTP 454 Casull, which according to the packaging is at abt 1900 at the muzzle.

Unfortunately the range I'm at only will let me go up to 454 Casull, as it's an indoor range and something about everyone else in the range would not be happy if I were to start popping off 460 Mags. And something about them being a business, they want people coming back... Ok, that just made me want to try the 460 Mag even more. So for now I am relegated to 45lc and 454 Casull.

And just to be clear, the bullets I'm using are XTP MAG, not the regular XTP. Brass is Starline nickle plated, primer is Fed 205. Powder is Alliant 2400.

My main concerns was how full that 454 Casull case looked using the STARTING load from he Hornady book. Then loading a case with the MAX load from the Hornady book was just about to the very top of the case. It would have been a compressed load.

Not having edition 9 I can not help you much. Edition 8 only lists the 240 gr then the 300.

Alliant does list the 250 gr Gold Dot and a Max of 26 grains of 2400 powder. You can use that reducing it by 10%.

If the manual shows a compressed load it should say that it is. If it doesn't then I would call or e mail Hornady to see why or why not.

With those slow powder with almost 95 to 100% case fill you are not going to "blow up " anything unless the powder states to do not compress.

You should not be up at max loads anyway.

How are you measuring and WEIGHING the powder charge?

Here is a chart with some data for the 250 grain bullet, they list it as a practice load. Note the primer used. Change one component you change a lot!

http://www.realguns.com/loads/454casull.htm

Yes, the bullets I'm using are the 240 grain XTP MAG. Wih a STARTING load of 30 grains of 2400(per the Hornady manual). Then as you pointed out, the Allient site listed a STARTING a load of 26 grains of 2400.

And that was one of my original question/concerns, that granted the Allient site is listing a different bullet than the XTP MAG, but their STARTING Load is quite a bit lower than the Hornady SRARTING load.

Sorry for so many questions, but the store bought Hornady 454 Casull'so that are pushing 1900 fps with a 240 grain bullet, would most of you consider that a full house round or an average 454 Casull round? Now, I'm not referring to loading one like that, but the store bought preloaded Hornady ammo.

I am weighing it with the digital Hornady scale.
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Reloading :: Metallic Reloading :: Tools & Gauges :: Scales & Accessories :: GS-1500 Grain Electronic Scale

You can safely use Speer's starting load of 26.0gr/2400 with the Hornady 240 XTP-MAG in the 454C case, if you like, & work-up from there. 2400 is very downloadable, unlike H110/W296, & doesn't have the same warnings.

I've never looked closely at factory loaded ammo specs but I suspect the average 454 Casull is a full load & 1900fps would qualify as such, IMO.

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ECA-460 said:

Yes, the bullets I'm using are the 240 grain XTP MAG. Wih a STARTING load of 30 grains of 2400(per the Hornady manual). Then as you pointed out, the Allient site listed a STARTING a load of 26 grains of 2400.

And that was one of my original question/concerns, that granted the Allient site is listing a different bullet than the XTP MAG, but their STARTING Load is quite a bit lower than the Hornady SRARTING load.

Sorry for so many questions, but the store bought Hornady 454 Casull'so that are pushing 1900 fps with a 240 grain bullet, would most of you consider that a full house round or an average 454 Casull round? Now, I'm not referring to loading one like that, but the store bought preloaded Hornady ammo.

Click to expand...

NO, the Alliant data is their MAX load (26 grains) Alliant only lists MAX and suggests you use 10% less or multiply by .90.

Yes it is a different bullet, all tests will vary so you change one component you change the whole end results. As you have the exact Hornady bullet, I would use the Hornady start data.

You can not compare to factory loads, they have powders we do not and their est could be out of a test barrel of whatever lenght.

Using the Hornady data of 30 grains of 2400, I decreased it by 10% using a 240 XTP MAG. All went bang with a decent amount of recoil. I also had talked to Hornady today and they confirmed what some of you had said as well that with 2400 and 110, you do get some compressed loads and that is expected.

And as was just stated too, they have their own powder, so we won't get an exact match to the factory ammo, but can get close.

Given all this, I will now load up some at 30 grains and slowly increase it, watching for the usual signs. I examined my crimps to the factory loaded ammo and found mine were actually crimped a bit more.

All in all, very happy that I can now produce my own 454 Casull ammo. Not really going for the hottest load, no sence in wearing out the brass too quickly. Thank you all for your help and patience. Also, yes, I see that the Allient is 26 grains MAX load, but a different bullet, so I will keep with known loads using known components. Mostly Hornady at this point in time.

ECA, Good to hear.

As you say there is no real need to go full bore max. I Loaded some in my 460 and it is just plain not fun to shoot a lot of of! The concussion is worse than the recoil!

Same problem with the 460 SW Mag there is not of reduced load data. I still want a Mag load and not a mouse fart, but with the slow powders it's hard to do. I came up with a decent load using Longshot. I am content with Ruger only 45 Colt loads!

ECA-460 said:

Not really going for the hottest load, no sence in wearing out the brass too quickly.

Click to expand...

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Rule3 said:

As you say there is no real need to go full bore max.

Click to expand...

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Agreed. And if you look at the incremental load data you usually see a point of diminished returns. If you don't need that extra 100-150fps save the powder and wear & tear. It'll still be impressive.

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