Stop Babying Berrys!

I've posted this sort of point of view before, but an experience yesterday makes me want to share again. Plated bullets are a WHOLE lot tougher than people think, and there's an enormous amount of misinformation about them. I even recently read an article in "American Rifleman" about loading plated bullets, and if any of this stuff was true it's a wonder those bullets survive shipping Seriously, Ive loaded many thousands of Berry's plated bullets at this point, and my experiences dont match 3/4s of the garbage I read or hear.
Last evening, I was shooting a 629 and 240 grain Berry's plated flat nose bullets, moving along at roughly 1100 FPS. My range is right out my front door, so I shoot steel plates...and anything else I feel like. I took some dry firewood, which was hardwood beech and shot a few. The bullets cause each peice to split in two as of an invisible splitting maul was slammed into them. Notice the bettes path through such dense hardwood...notice the lack of deformation, the rifling marks, and my semi firm crimp line. Plated bullets, at least Berry's bullets are much tougher than people realize. I dont baby them, I crimp them hard, I load them to jacketed velocities, and have never experienced a single negative issue. I've shot them into all sort of things and have NEVER seen the plating "flake off", become damaged in any way, and am often shocked at how well they hold up when shot into very hard targets such as this hard wood, cinder blocks, metal objects, etc. Proof is always in the pictures. My point is, dont baby them or be scared away from them. Load em, push em, enjoy them...but dont feel the need to baby them.

here's some pics...240 grain flat point .44 cal Berry's plated bullet. Wood is dry, hard Beech wood.

And your point being??

You stated you are running 1100fps

The max of that bullet is 1250 fps. The core is still soft swagged lead.

Description

Berry's Superior Plated Bullets are swaged and plated to final weight and re-struck
for accuracy and precision. They are more affordable than jacketed rounds and won't foul
your barrel with lead.
SAAMI MAX .44 Spl COL = 1.500"
SAAMI MAX .44 Mag COL = 1.610"
Can withstand velocities up to 1250 fps.

My point is, it's not soft, and the plating isn't fragile. Soft lead would have flattened and not penetrated hard wood.

MJFlores said:

My point is, it's not soft, and the plating isn't fragile. Soft lead would have flattened and not penetrated hard wood.

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Nothing against Berrys or any plated. Good plated bullets can be loaded almost to FMJ loads as you say, They are not going to fall aprt, But they still are soft and plated, Yes you can crimp them but need to be careful not to crack the plating
They are not fine china

Your loads are below their max so all is good.

Take one and smash it with a hammer, then smash a Hard Cast lead bullet.


But THEY are SOFT lead. Swagged bullets by design are softer than cast bullets.

From Berrys own website:

Bad Request


Question: What is the difference between Plated/Jacketed/Cast bullets? Berry's Superior Plated bullets begin as a swaged lead core. The plating process works through electrolysis as the lead cores are tumbled in an electrically charged bath containing high-grade copper ingots. The copper clings to the lead and the longer the bullets remain in the bath, the thicker the plating. Our bullets are plated to the correct size and then taken out of the bath.

Jacketed bullets start with a copper cup, which is "drawn up" into the form of a jacket. Lead is then swaged into the jacket.

Cast bullets are made up of lead that has been poured into a bullet mould. These bullets come in various hardness levels depending upon the alloy of the lead. All of our cast bullets are lubed and all have the same hardness (about 20 bhu). We distinguish between Hardcast and Cowboy only in that our Cowboy bullets are often used in Cowboy Action Shooting events.

Comparison:

Jacketed Bullets: Generally are most expensive but can be shot at magnum velocities and require less cleaning than Cast bullets.
Plated Bullets: Not as expensive as Jacketed, cleaner than cast and will not lead your barrel. But you will have to stay away from magnum velocities when loading plated bullets.
Cast Bullets: Usually cost the least, but are very "dirty" and often cannot be used in indoor ranges

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Question: Why is the bullet diameter 0.001" bigger than my load book recommends?
Berry's Mfg sizes our .32 cal, 38 Super, 9mm, 40/10mm and .45 ACP a thousandth larger than the standard FMJ round diameter. It is completely safe to load, as our bullet is constructed out of a soft lead and then plated with copper, which does not cause the pressure spikes that an oversized FMJ round would. The plated bullet pressure curve resembles that of the hard cast or lead bullets.

As long as you stay below the manufacturer's maximum recommended velocity, you will do fine. I've loaded some 210 grain plated bullets in my 41 mag to a little over 1300 fps and half the time I was getting two holes in the target with a single shot.

And different makers have different degrees of plating, not all are plated through electrolysis. Some are more of a "dusting".

MJFlores wrote:
Seriously, Ive loaded many thousands of Berry's plated bullets at this point, and my experiences dont [sic] match 3/4s of the garbage I read or hear.

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What garbage have you heard and were did you hear it?

1100 fps? Quit babyin' em!

Rule3 said:

Nothing against Berrys or any plated. Good plated bullets can be loaded almost to FMJ loads as you say, They are not going to fall aprt, But they still are soft and plated, Yes you can crimp them but need to be careful not to crack the plating
They are not fine china

Your loads are below their max so all is good.

Take one and smash it with a hammer, then smash a Hard Cast lead bullet.


But THEY are SOFT lead. Swagged bullets by design are softer than cast bullets.

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Granted it is usually discussed that lead is softer in plated bullets. Well if plated bullet lead is that SOFT I would think that a .44 cal bullet hitting a log of wood at 1100 fps would mushroom a least a little. The bullet the OP posted showed no mushrooming. The OP's post was about how hard the lead was and how the plating held up in those Berry's. Based on his results it seems manufactures maybe starting to harden the lead up and he may be on to something.

I have to side with the OP. I'll also point out that "Magnum" velocities out of a 4 inch or less handgun won't exceed 1250 FPS unless you are loading a lighter than typical bullet and most likely using a maximum or bit higher charge weight.

Yeah, you can get a 125 grain bullet up to 1400 fps out of a 4 inch revolver but doing that will require a slow burning powder and a maximum or near maximum charge weight. The end result of this particular type of load will be increased flame cutting of the top strap of the frame, increased erosion to the forcing cone, and excessive muzzle flash and blast borders on freakish. BTW, been there done that and won't do it again. If you want to load a 125 grain 357 Magnum to the maximum for H110 then use it in a rifle where you can receive full benefit from that powder charge.

Typical ballistics for a "hot" 357 Magnum from a 4 inch revolver is a 158 grain bullet running between 1150 and 1250 fps. If you want to exceed 1250 fps you either need a longer barrel or a powder charge that is a bit over the listed maximum charge weight. BTW, I am aware that in the mid 30's there were claimed loads that listed 1400 fps for a 158 grain bullet. However those were lead bullets and were tested using chronographs that likely weren't nearly as accurate as todays chronographs. In addition Piezo Electric pressure testing has revealed pressure spikes that were not detectable using the older copper crusher method and as a result powder charges today have been reduced from what they were in the days when the copper crusher was the only means to test for pressure.

Sum it up and today's quality plated bullets can actually stand up to most "Magnum" velocities if a 4 inch or shorter handgun is used. If you load just 1/3 of the range below maximum (a point I have found to consistently be the peak in accuracy) you can safely use these loads in a 6 inch revolver. Exceptions to this statement may be the 460 and 500 Magnum, I have zero experience with these calibers and don't even know what bullet weights or velocities are typical for these Super Magnums. If you want to load for these powerhouses I would suggest the use of a chronograph and careful adherence to that 1250 fps stated maximum velocity.

Another area of concern for plated bullets is when using them in a Rifle. Because out of a 20 inch Short Rifle with lighter bullet weights and powders a rather basic 38 +P load can exceed that 1250 maximum velocity. Personally my preference for Rifle loads in 357 Magnums is the Hornady XTP, primarily the 140 and 158 grain varieties. However I have actually loaded the 125 grain XTP to 2150 fps using H110 and it proved to be a distinctly flat shooting and fairly accurate load. I suspect that if I attempted to do the same with a 125 grain Berry's the bullet would come apart within a few feet of leaving the barrel.

I shoot lots of extreme 148 plated WC and have shot 45 Berrys. They are both more like jacketed, from some that I recovered the plating is thick like a jacket.

snakeye said:

Granted it is usually discussed that lead is softer in plated bullets. Well if plated bullet lead is that SOFT I would think that a .44 cal bullet hitting a log of wood at 1100 fps would mushroom a least a little. The bullet the OP posted showed no mushrooming. The OP's post was about how hard the lead was and how the plating held up in those Berry's. Based on his results it seems manufactures maybe starting to harden the lead up and he may be on to something.

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Thank you!! That's exactly what I was trying to get at. My post had nothing to do with velocity. I'm just saying that the lead is a lot harder, and the plating is a whole lot tougher than what a lot of people think. Ive heard the song and dance about "be careful not to crimp them hard", expand your case mouths a bit extra to avoid chipping or peeling the plating off",...and many others. My point is, Ive deliberately tried to over crimp them, or damage the plating and I havent yet. My message is, load them, enjoy them, and shoot them. There's no need to worry about "over working" them at the loading bench.

X treme

Xtreme bullets seemed like jacketed to me. They are hard and tough and the plating seems pretty thick. Very good bullets. But not if you want soft ones. They are probably a good substitute for fmjs.

Good info. I was wondering about Berry`s . Any information on HSM plated? Also cannot find load data for 125gr. 38 special.

I love Berry's Bullets. I've had zero problems with their .357, .44 and .500 bullets using mid-range loads.

rwsmith said:

Xtreme bullets seemed like jacketed to me. They are hard and tough and the plating seems pretty thick. Very good bullets. But not if you want soft ones. They are probably a good substitute for fmjs.

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That is exactly how I use them in 9mm. Simply pick a powder, look up the FMJ data for the powder I want to use, and start halfway between min and max. Never had a load that failed to function right off the bat. Never had an ounce of leading, either.

Most loads selected that way match factory fodder pretty well.

Berrys are excellent bullets but the plating is very thin. Be sure to properly bell the case mouth before seating or you may deform or shave the bullet.

cadmike said:

Berrys are excellent bullets but the plating is very thin. Be sure to properly bell the case mouth before seating or you may deform or shave the bullet.

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This is what I mean. No, in my experience I've never shaved the plating. It's very tough, as tough as jacketed. It withstood hardwood at 1100 fps. Treat them like any jacketed bullet.

I beg to differ. The plating is much softer than a copper jacket.

I've loaded some Berry's and lots of Xtreme plated bullets. I have roll crimped right through the copper plating. When you do you can't see it looking at the round with a loop, you have to pull the bullet to find it. Cut through the plating and that will lead the barrel. And as I found out, if your rounds are up there in FPS it will lead the **** out of the barrel!
I had some plated rounds (revolver) lead a barrel and when I pulled a bullet I had not cut the plating. I wondered if the bullet was elongating pulling the crimped band open. I could never find a fired bullet to prove this.
Plinking rounds with a slight roll crimp were never a problem. I know opinions differ but I noticed when using slow powders for more FPS the gun stayed cleaner with a stout roll crimp. For revolvers lately I'm pretty much only ordering coated bullets with a crimp band. Kinda makes my life easier.
For semi-auto I still buy Xtreme's plated RN's when they go on sale. They seat fine and I taper crimp to only remove the bell from the case. I've never had a problem with plated in semi-auto's.