Many seem shocked to find that some of their range pick up brass is small primer, many detest it ( I am NOT one), many in disgust throw the small primer brass away. I simply sort them and run accordingly.

My question is.....in what year did small primer .45 acp make it's appearance?

Seems like over 20 years ago to me.........

Randy

I would have to agree that NT (non toxic) small primer 45acp ammo has been out at least 15-20 years. I'm one of those guys who throws it away when I find.

Doing a quick search, the different forums seem to start talking about them around 2011. But I'm like you; seems like longer than that when the sp 45acp brass appeared.

Bought 1K of once-fired SPEER 45acp +P nickled SP cases last year for $0.075 each...

They have worked very well for me!

Cheers!

I don't recall ever seeing any of this brass, but i don't generally use range pickup brass. However, with the current situation, a handloader would be able to use small rifle primers in such brass whereas large rifle primers are a bit too tall to use in place of large pistol primers in regular .45 ACP brass.

I now see a reference to 1984 being an introduction of SPP in .45 acp.

Those of you that throw them away can throw them to me......

Randy

This is always an interesting discussion. First off, it isn’t all “NT” brass, though it may very well have began that way. I believe it was Winchester non-toxic where it started, but these days it’s almost all just the standard lead styphnate primed brass with a small pocket.

The original Win-NT small primer .45 ACP brass is absolutely annoying because the pocket is also crimped and you either have to swage that out (sucks!) or priming is a bear, often hit or miss.

But all the other brass currently on the market (my largest supply by far is ATK, which is Federal, Speer, Blazer) loads perfectly fine judt using the small primer instead of the large primer.

The only REAL thing that stinks about the fact that small primer .45 brass exists is the fact that we have 100 years of LP brass in .45, so now a lot of grizzled folks are annoyed.

This requires more inspection on the part of the handloader. But haha, yeah, well… should be doing that anyway, ya know?

In case you missed it, manufacturers are also going to small primer in 10mm brass. But the angry backlash is nonexistent because 10mm guys just wanna get their paws on brass, they aren’t as picky.

Just bought 250 sp .45acp to run in my 1911 for my cas club Wild Bunch shoots as i get most of them back. Found another 95 in gifted range brass. Loading srp in them to stretch out my limited lpp supply. Don’t know why you guys are chucking them, might be a time when spp or srp is all that you can get at any price. My wife would have said ‘they ain’t eating anything.’ Put them in a coffee can and forget them until you might need them. I see no difference in my .45acp ammo.

1984 sounds too early generally.

When CCI developed the lead-free priming compound - early 1990's, as I recall, it was found that some models of 45 pistols experienced breech face peening. To counter that, CCI-Speer enlarged the flash hole to reduce back thrust.

After CCI-Speer acquired Federal, Federal went to the small primer - initially for the lead free priming and to eliminate breech face peening. Winchester quickly followed, and added the crimp - again, to save the breech face.

Once it was seen that the small primers worked, they started using it in the normal lead primed cases as well.

Speer (and I suppose others in the group) have gone to small primers in the 10mm Auto as well.

The original lead-free compound was called "Cleanfire". Cases using it looked unfired except for the indented primer after firing. Most of the blackening you see after shooting a round is from the primer.

I just toss them in a bag in case I ever need them. I have a lot of LPP so I use the case that take the large primer and save the small primer for other loads.

I built .040 [26 gauge] spacers to go under spp .455 Webley MkII brass so I could use my .455 loads in my .45 cas vaqueros and save lpp for my cas .45colt rifles. Used them in a couple shoots so far, work fine.

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I much prefer the small primer brass. Only one primer to stock. I try to sort it but sometimes a few get by me. No big deal because trying to seat a small primer into a large primer case is no danger of squashing a primer. I’ve gotten to the point that I don’t separate them anymore. I process them all and then seat the small primer. Once I see it’s a large primer case I keep them apart from the others. Before the panic I bought one brick of large primers. A few months ago I had enough large primer brass to load the whole brick.

I have been loading .45 for 40 years or so. I have no interest in messing with the SP brass. If I find any, I give it away. I don't like it when one sneaks by and causes me great consternation in the Dillon.

I don't get range brass so there is no chance of getting the wrong size.

A few years ago I got a deal on 1000 small primer 45s for a bargain basement price. Then I retired all my large primer 45s. Still o chance of mixing them up.

I shoot a variety of handgun rounds. Now, half are large and half small. It has simplified my primer inventory immensely.

In case anyone asks, my small 45s shoot just as good as the big ones.

I get ALL my brass (well mostly ALL) from range pick-up (for the past 50+ yrs); I'm one of the "grizzled" ones but I use SPP 45 brass as well as LPP. Don't bother me none; but then, I'm SO OLD that I still use a single stage press. I just can't throw food or brass away.... there are too many people in China who are starving for both :-).

J.

Any I come across go in the scrap brass bucket.

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S&W Accumulator

Ditto that. I only have a few hundred but actually wish that more calibers came in both small and large primer varieties.

I'd like the flexibility of being able to load for every caliber no matter what size of primers I have available to me. I'd be more than willing to go to the trouble of sorting them for the flexibility of not being limited to one size primer per caliber.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

I don't want all one type primer for my cartridges. I do want one type standardized per caliber. My .45 Colt, ACP, etc, LPP. .38 Special, 9mm, etc, SPP.

Inspecting brass quality is necessary, but having to sort by primer type shouldn't be.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

K.I.S.S.

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GOA
USA Shooting Supporter

Anyone who doesn’t want SPP .45 cases can throw them my way. I’ll even pay postage.

When reloaders were complaining about small primed 45 ACP brass. I decided to do my own test. I bought 200 once fired 45 ACP cases, and I already had nearly 900 large primer cases. Assembled three different bullets in both sm. and lg. primed cases. Long story short; not enough difference in my 3, 45 ACP guns to make a difference...

I like reloading and I inspect every case before it is reloaded. Once quickly pre tumbling and a closer inspection after cleaning. For me glancing at the case head, noting the primer pocked diameter takes 1.386 seconds, and having two containers to toss them in, one for large, one for small primed, is of no consequence...

I know for sure such .45 ACP cases were available in the late 1990s, primarily because use of lead-free primers became more common then. I don't think anyone was making lead-free primers in large sizes at that time, and that still may be the case - I don't know.

I have loaded many, many .45 ACP cases with small pockets using SR primers, no problems at all, beyond having to segregate such cases from those with large pockets.

"When CCI developed the lead-free priming compound - early 1990's, as I recall, it was found that some models of 45 pistols experienced breech face peening."

Actually, lead-free primers were used in some ammunition primer applications during WWII. And CCI didn't even exist then. They were based on using DDNP (diazodinitrophenol) instead of lead styphnate or potassium chlorate as the impact-sensitive component. Federal was supposed to have come up with a suitable lead-free primer composition based on thermite chemistry several years ago, but I have not seen anything about it for some time.

Perhaps I should say "commercial lead-free priming" then. At least they were selling the Cleanfire ammunition at that time.

I toss the small pistol primed 45 brass because if I don't I will wind up trying to seat a large primer in it in the Dillon. Kind of unnerving to crunch a primer while trying to seat it. I was also surprised to find out that they make 10 mm small primed. I was advised of this when I ordered the brass, just hadn't seen it before. To load that I have to size and deprime all of the small pistol 10 mm separately and hand prime them before loading them on the Dillon. The most surprising thing I have run across when sorting some range pickup brass was several 380 ACP that had large pistol primers in them. Made me feel like I've seen it all now.

The only problem I've been able to determine, after all the years of forum posts about small primed 45 ACP brass, is reported by those that don't inspect their brass and just dump a bunch of cases into the hopper of their progressive press...

One advantage of small primed cases is that any small primer can be used. Standard, magnum pistol or riffle, all the same size. Large primed cases can only use pistol primers as rifle primers are .008" taller. Might make a difference today with the "unobtainable" primer situation...

I used to chuck spp .45 acp brass. Then I figured out that reloading it & using it at ranges that have tall grass or odd rules doesn't make me as sad when I don't recover it. I keep the lpp brass for occasions where I can recover it YMMV


-don

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SWCA LM#2190 SWHF#414

The primer pocket size makes no difference to me as I use a more primitive loading tool. I just segregate cases by primer cup diameter before loading. Typically I use SR primers with those cases because I have more of them.

BTW, some earlier .357 Mag and .38 Super cases can be found that have Large primer pockets. Maybe some other cartridges that use small primers today also.

Some of you will get all frosted up when you discover that 6.5 Creedmoor by Federal is small rifle primed brass.

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S&WHF 366

Many rifle cartridges are offered with your choice of primer size. I load 6.8 SPC and all the early ones were LRP. When Silver State Armory began to offer the SRP version I standardized my brass those. I don't think I've ever found 6.8 SPC at a range before.

The .308 Win and 6.5 Needmore is offered in both versions by different companies, I standardized on LRP for both. The .223 and .454 Casull use all the SRP I can feed them.

The 20th century firearms industry standardization we once enjoyed is gone.

If you're about to order new brass, say Lapua brand @ over a $1 each, you better read the fine print.

As long as I can choose what I want, know to look specifically at primer type, and are not financially penalized, companies can make multiples of whatever. I don't want to be forced to change.

I rarely find usable range brass now, but it was nice to pick up .45 ACP, and now even .45 Colt and know it was LPP.

I don't want "one size fits all." What I want ain't too important to anyone, and I understand. Still don't like it, but understand.

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GOA
USA Shooting Supporter

I'll buy your SP 45acp brass..... And I Did

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I sort my brass when I take them out of the the tumbler after removing the media. Look for splits then too.

OK, I've not reloaded for a few years but plan on getting back into it due to, obviously, the price of new ammo.
Prior to my hiatus from loading, and til now, had not heard of SPP's being used in 45acp.
Were these supplied by brass/reloading component manufactures or are there actual companies loading 45acp with SPP's?
I just check a handful of loaded 45acp ammo from Winchester, Federal and PMC, all with traditional LPP's. Admittedly these were all purchased many years ago, so no experience with new loaded 45acp loads in recent years.
I have 4 or 5 five gallon buckets of assorted brass and will be sorting them and cleaning/polishing them prior to re-loading, but having to inspect each one as to primer size will be a royal pain.
Any suggestions or info on what brands were using SPP's in factory loaded ammo?

Thanks, in advance.

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.............SmithNut

Picked up 90 cases at the range the other day all were new Blazer cases with small primers.

Interesting.... the good news is that when I hear Blazer I still think of aluminum, non-reloadable ammo. Never bought any of their brass stuff.

I wonder what the economics are with using SP version LP, unless it's a performance/consistency issue??

Oh well, in reading most of this thread I see other brands (including Winchester), so whatever/wherever they changed and for what purpose, I guess I'll just be taking more time in the sorting process....

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.............SmithNut

I don’t really buy factory ammo a whole lot, but there is a ton of .45 ACP being made with small primer simply as factory ammo, yes.

It’s really quite simple when you look at the scale of the bulk of what ammo is being made. We start with what the big companies are making the absolute most of, by far, and that is 9mm. Small primer.

Then what is next in order of popularity? If we take out .45 just for a second, we can conclude that -ALL- of the most popular stuff next is going to be the zillions of rounds of .40, .380, .38 Special, .357 Magnum.

We can agree that regardless of how much we may like .44 Mag, .45 Colt, .41 Magnum… the ammo makers are not selling hardly anything with large primer in comparison to all of the small primer rounds.

Except for .45, which sells extremely well. So if they could successfully switch .45 to small primer, they would streamline arguably 95% of alllll the handgun ammo they are making.

That’s the answer.

While I have never actually reloaded a SPP 45 ACP, have collected a bunch of brass, and recently took a look at what I have since I have around three times as many SPP than LPP right now.

Quick check shows I have Federal, Blazer, and Winchester cases that take SPP. The Blazer and Winchester have unique stamps on them v.s. the LPP cases, but the Federal stuff has a stamp that you only see with SPP, but there's another one that is on both. In the nature of full disclosure, I need to admit that the Federal SPP cases that have the same stamping as LPP could be 20-30 years old and I just never noticed, and Federal got smart and created distinct markings for each along the way.

SPP have been very difficult to find so I wouldn't go out of my way to buy .45 brass that uses them. I have to save SPP for .32, .380, 9mm and .38 Special.

...and 40 S&W & 357SIG...?

CHEERS!

While currently SPP are scarce who knows if the next time it will be LPPs that you can’t find. For that reason I sort the SPP 45 brass and set it off to the side, just in case. As others have said, it doesn’t cost anything to sit in a coffee can.