38+P loads using 158 XTPs- ideas?

I use 125 grain XTP bullets for my +P .38 Special loads. 4.5 grains of Clean Shot give me 1050fps out of a 4" inch barrel. One of the most accurate loads I have to boot.
 
The right bullet design, construction, material and weight X...

The right powder, primer, OAL (and resultant velocity) X...

The right barrel, rifling and length X...

Shot INTO the right medium (Be it water, jugs gell, flesh... Maybe even the "meat target"?) =

Perfect penetration & expansion.:D

Good luck!

Cheers!
 
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Paul in Nevada said:
Hornady loads this bullet at an advertised 800fps, which I assume is standard pressure. The Lucky Gunner test shows 716fps out of a 2" barrel. 18" of penetration and zero expansion. At +P pressure you might get another 80-100fps but I still don't think it will expand. Believe it or not the 125gr XTP's clocked a full 110fps faster and penetrated 2" less but still didn't expand.

I'm not trying to throw cold water on your project but I think you would get the same performance with a LSWC and save a few bucks.
The FTX's always get a bit of derision on forums but at least they expand at these velocities.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
Click to expand...

Agreed - partially. I use the 125 gr XTPs and I need at least 1050 fps to get them to expand in 10% ballistic gel. My target velocity for them is 1150-1200 fps and in a short barrel (2 1/2” or 3”) that’s .357 Magnum territory.

The partly part is that most LSWCHP loads won’t do any better at .38+P velocity.
 
158gr jacketed bullets in 38 Special (+P)

alwslate said:
For a true +P load that is still within the 20,000 psi limits use 6.0 grs of Hodgdon Long shot or Alliant Power Pistol.
From pressure tested loads of .38 spl +P articles in Handloader magazine.
Click to expand...

In a Handloader #276 article with 38 Special (+P) load data Brian Pearce said:

"Some sources list data for 158 grain jacketed bullets in the .38 Special. I do not recommend this practice, as these bullets will commonly stick in the bore, which is dangerous to the shooter and will likely damage the gun. I have personally examined many guns that were damaged from this incorrect combination. Therefore, no loads are listed here using jacketed bullets heavier than 140 grains."

In Handloader #304 he might be construed as contradicting that statement by listing 38 Special (+P) load data for the 158gr XTP however the article is "Loads for Heavy Framed Revolvers (.38-44)".
.

alwslate said:
Real Alliant data actually goes up to 6.2 grs of Power Pistol as does Speer data I think.
Click to expand...

Speer Reloading Manuals have not listed 158gr jacketed bullet load data in 38 Special, nor 38 Special (+P), for years.

I don't have the current manual, Speer #15, but I do have Speer #13 (1998) & Speer #14 (2010) and neither have that data.
Speer on-line does not list any 38 Special (+P) 158gr jacketed load data either.

In fact they specifically say in the manuals,
"Jacketed bullets heavier than 146grs yielded very low velocities under current pressure standards and we not longer recommend them in the 38 Special."

Partially because of a lack of bullet performance & the possibility of a barrel obstruction, especially in short barrels.

Speer Reloading Manuals are the primary media for ATK/Alliant products.

.
.

Personally I've loaded 38 Special (+P+) 158 JHP loads but generally my SD 38 Special (+P) loads are with 135gr or 140gr JHPs, which the OP couldn't find.

IMO, a gas checked 158gr L-SWC-HP (like from Rim Rock) will net you more SD performance, & speed, than a 158gr JHP will using the same 38 Special load data.

.



.
 
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..a question...in the "real world" who cares if a soft but effective bullet leads up the bore....we are talking life and death here not a qualification course.

I rarely carry a .38 Special because in my LE career I saw WAY too many failures against both people and things. But when I do it is loaded to the original .38-44 specifications and the only loads out there that duplicate them are the two mentioned above from Buffalo Bore.

This is a video on the HP load that I have posted before..

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM&t=7s[/ame]


Bob
 
The OP asked about data for a 158 gr JHP and data is available. It’s not my idea that he use them. It’s his. Real Alliant data from the powder company shows data with Power Pistol with a 158 gr bullet.
 
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Fide686 said:
Thanks, I have some longshot that I can try. I had to but a case of Fed spm primers due to availability. They have been working fine- usually a few fps faster.
Click to expand...

The Hornady Reloading Manual shows the 4.5 grs of HP-38/231 being a standard pressure 38 special load with that 158 gr. XTP bullet , at 750 fps .

For a +P load they show 4.9 grs. @ 800 fps. as a max. load.
Since you have the powder and since you are looking for +P loads you could try 4.7 grs HP-38/231 and see what they do with those magnum pistol primers .

Your recorded test velocities seem to be right in line with Hornady's test data (taken fron 4" model 15 S&W revolver) and listed in their reloading data .
Dropping the powder charge 1 or 2 tenths of a grain seems to make up for any extra magnum primer velocity just fine .

In these times you have to reload with what you have / can get ... and if all you got is HP-38 and magnum primers ... I think you are doing an awesome job of making them work ...
... ATTABOY !!! ...
Gary
 
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Uh, when they say "under current pressure standards" it may tend to make one pause and wonder a bit...?

How low (in velocity) does one really need to go to stick a 158gr JHP in a barrel? I don't see why one would want to download to a bunny-fart XTP, anyway.

Cheers!

P.S. Let's see: 110 & 125gr bullets flame cut or outright destroy the forcing cones, bullets (jacketed) over 146gr now plug the bores... How did the S&W 38 Special (and the 357 Magnum) ever make it for almost a century and a quarter without being banned: the title of the expose could read UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED Mk.II?
 
There is an abundance of +P .38 spl published data for 158 gr JHPs. Whether you choose them is up to you. Handloader number 304 BP who pressure tests all loads shows loads with 5 different powders for the 158 XTP. Speer #11 shows +P loads with 14 different powders with their 158 gr JHP. My real Alliant powder manual from when they actually published them shows +P loads with a 160 JSP with all of their powders from Bullseye to 2400. My Hornady 4 th shows +P data with the 158 gr XTP with 8 or 9 different powders. So do what you feel comfortable with.
 
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A lot depends if you are shooting the lead 158 gr HP +P out of a 2 or 4" revolver.

.................. 2" ........................... 4" ............. Dia.
Federal ...... 794 .......................... 892 .......... .35" (1 out of 5)
Remington... 802 ......................... 921 .......... .56"
Winchester .. 750 ......................... 839 .......... .51"

if you load a lighter, faster bullet in a 2" barrel;

Federal 130 HST micro .................. 824 .......... .73" dia.
Remington 125 GS ......................... 877 .......... .62"
Winchester 130 PDX1 ..................... 823........... .63"

There is good SD ammo out there.
You just need to test it out to see what works for you.
 
Get the 158gr. JHP out of you mind. It is designed for magnum velocities. Practice with a LSWC and use the GT 145gr. SWCHP or the Matt's 158gr. SWCHP for reliable expansion at 900 fps at +P pressures.
 
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SuperMan said:
Shooting any .357 jacketed bullet that is rated to be shot in a .357 Magnum at magnum velocities is not going to expand at all in a human body at the low end of their supposed velocity range. .

Ballistic gelatin is a solid homogeneous mass...a human body is not. Bullets taken from actual shootings look nothing like the ones in the adds...

If you want expansion under 1000 fps look at the lead HPs from GT Bullets or Rim Rock.

I just have one .38 snubbie left...a 649-2, and it is only carried with the Buffalo Bore 158 +P loads in both solid and HP...

Bob
Click to expand...

GT 145 or Matt's 158 Cramer #11 2 LSWCHP boolits that will expand at +P velocities
 
I agree with others, I believe you would be better served with a cast boolit instead of jacketed at the 38 special speeds with a 158 grain boolit.

Rosewood
 
The 158 gr JHP is not the absolute best choice for +P loads in a .38 spl. BUT since you already have them there is plenty of load data available. And expand or not one will absolutely completely penetrate an upper torso from any angle at +P velocities. And if the 95 gr FMJ .380 is an acceptable SD load then surely your 158 gr bullets will suffice.
 
alwslate said:
The 158 gr JHP is not the absolute best choice for +P loads in a .38 spl. BUT since you already have them there is plenty of load data available. And expand or not one will absolutely completely penetrate an upper torso from any angle at +P velocities. And if the 95 gr FMJ .380 is an acceptable SD load then surely your 158 gr bullets will suffice.
Click to expand...
True, but the only reason 380 hangs on is because there are CCW guns too small to chamber 9mm, and even that is changing in the last few years. 380 has purpose-built bullets designed to get the most out of it's velocity and weight. 20 years ago when I started carrying a 380 a lot of people would only carry Euro made FMJ's because they were hotter and would penetrate. Since then the 380 has enjoyed a resurgence in popularity and now we have "acceptable" 380 JHP's. 38spl has not enjoyed the same treatment. We are still stuck with bullets made either for target practice or 357 velocities. That being said, if your objective is to poke 35 cal holes in things I would still take the heavier 38 over the 380 any day.
 
As usual lots of opinions and few facts. The .380 is alive and well and works with FMJ. And as for the often repeated OPINION about hotter Euro .380 ammo I have chronographed a LOT of .380 FMJ in my numerous pistols and Remington 95 gr FMJ usually beats all the rest. The .380 doesn’t need light weight HPs that often are no faster than FMJ. And yes the .38 spl with heavier bullets at GOOD velocity hits harder than 95 gr FMJ. Either will make two holes in a perp with each shot.
 
alwslate said:
The OP asked about data for a 158 gr JHP and data is available.
Click to expand...

What load data the OP wants to use matters not to me but he may, nonetheless, find it beneficial to know that some knowledgeable entities do not endorse that load for valid reasons.

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alwslate said:
Speer #11 shows +P loads with 14 different powders with their 158 gr JHP. My real Alliant powder manual from when they actually published them shows +P loads with a 160 JSP with all of their powders from Bullseye to 2400.
Click to expand...

Quoting outdated Speer #11 (1987) load data is a sad defense for ignoring current day load data warnings.

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alwslate said:
My Hornady 4 th shows +P data with the 158 gr XTP with 8 or 9 different powders. So despite ignorant opinions to the contrary there is plenty of data.
Click to expand...

You infer I said nobody lists load data for 38 Specials & 158gr JHPs, which I clearly did not say, but actually provided a reference that said others do provide it, just NOT the two references YOU sighted.
 
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I edited or deleted a number of posts. Keep the discussion civil and focus on the issue, NOT each other.

From our rules:
2. Remember- opinions will differ. Get over it. State your opinion calmly, and allow others to state theirs. Discussion will be fine, but there is no need to take a thread into a verbal fistfight or shouting match.

3. Do NOT descend into personal attacks on a member.
Naiveté, or viewpoints different from yours are no reason to call a member an idiot or moron.
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Do not feed trolls.
NO LYNCHINGS or MUGGINGS.
Learn to use the "IGNORE" feature for posters that ANNOY you. In your User CP, under Settings & Options, click Edit Ignore List.
Click to expand...
 
If I were a bad guy...................

I would not want to be shot with any size, weight, Dia. bullet from any caliber gun that ...........

penetrated 12" or more, into my body.

Get er done.
 
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