Does anyone make a 9x19mm "Luger" carbide sizing die that does not produce a Coke-bottle shape in the brass case? It would not have to be carbide, buy any hard, smooth die that does not require case lube? I seem to recall a TiN "titanium nitrate?) treated die at one time but cannot find any information on it.

My Redding standard die is perfect; I just want to be able to skip the case lube and its removal.

I’d be a bit leery of trying to escape using lube in a TiN-coated steel die, but in something as small and tapered like a 9mm Luger, it might work. Does Hornady make one? Alternatively, would it be possible to use some sort of dry lube on your 9mm cases? I’m assuming you clean and tumble them before loading? Just a thought.

Some Hornady "Custom Grade" dies are Titanium Nitride. Can't say if their 9x19 dies are or not, but they most likely will size ammunition to look exactly like their Tungsten Carbide dies.

How ammunition appears when re-loaded depends more on how you use the dies rather than the dies themselves. In my experience teaching re-loading too many over-do the various stages resulting in odd looking ammunition. Die adjustment is the secret to good ammunition, not the dies themselves.

Speaking of lubricating cases for sizing. The secret is to not over-lubricate them. This reduces the need to remove the case lube after sizing! Cleaning off lube is the same as case polishing. No one thought it was necessary before companies began to make case polishing equipment, we merely wiped the cases to get grit off of them before sizing to protect the dies, then loaded and shot them again! When case polishing equipment was introduced in the early 1970s all-of-a-sudden people began to believe polishing was necessary! It wasn't then and still isn't! Tarnished cases shoot just like bright, shiny ones!

If you are really concerned about cleaning off lube after sizing then try this. Lube and size the cases, them throw them in your polisher with ground corn cob. Voila! No more lube on the cases!! Then expand and complete loading. Easy, isn't it!

__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961

RCBS tungsten carbide die set. Size die is tapered. Expander is M type. 2 seating plugs included.

Attached Images

20230127_091817.jpg (64.1 KB, 54 views)

Speaking of lubricating cases for sizing. The secret is to not over-lubricate them. This reduces the need to remove the case lube after sizing! Cleaning off lube is the same as case polishing. No one thought it was necessary before companies began to make case polishing equipment, we merely wiped the cases to get grit off of them before sizing to protect the dies, then loaded and shot them again! When case polishing equipment was introduced in the early 1970s all-of-a-sudden people began to believe polishing was necessary! " It wasn't then and still isn't! Tarnished cases shoot just like bright, shiny ones!"

Actually, I find the tarnished cases have better "grab" on the chamber wall and show a more rounded primer edge after firing. Having said that, I must admit that I too have been smitten with SCS (Shinny Case Syndrome) and we must do something with all those corncobs...

I may have missed something. What exactly is a Coke Bottle 9mm sizing die? Or a Coke Bottle case.

Hornady made the "Titanium Coated" dies and I bought a set .

They do not work as "advertised" and you almost have to use case lube or resizing becomes very difficult ...
I went back to an old steel CH sizer ... it didn't over size and gave me a better tapered case when done .

I don't know if Hornadt even sells these anylonger ... but if you get a set ... plan on using case lube .
Avoid Lee Carbide dies at all costs ... they undersize way to much and you get a real Wonky Looking case !
Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Warren,I am using a Redding carbide with good results, not sure about coke bottle shape but I have not experienced anything like that.

Gotta go with the die adjustments comment above plus your brass. I was adjusting seating depth last night and got a case that bulged a bit on one side. But, it was a ???? make case that required noticeably more muscle to resize than WW/Federal.

In 9 mm I've always gone with RCBS TC dies as they originated the 9mm TC die.

So long as it fits in the cartridge gauge* and feeds/fires, I've never been all that worried about appearance. Although shiny is good.

* Having used a wide variety of 9 mm brass from all over the world, the specs on the 9 mm case rim seem to vary more than most. I like the Lyman 9 mm/.38 Super shell holder for that reason. Also, so long as at least half the case rim thickness goes in the gauge, it'll feed & fire. The case rim doesn't go in the chamber.

I agree with Redding use !!

In the late 70's/early 80's Hornady/Pacific dies were made to the MINIMUM case size standards. the cases were sized to the minimum diameter! All my 38/357's from those dies look like Coke Bottles. I now use RCBS Carbide dies from the 90's and my ammo looks factory ammo.

I always called it "Wasp Wasted". It holds less powder too! But I never had any feeding problems in lever action carbines.

Ivan

“Coke Bottle” or “Wasp Waisted” cases refers to the shape and appearance the handgun cases after they have been sized with a die that contains a single carbide ring. It is the carbide ring that performs the actual sizing of the case. With only a single sizing ring in the sizing die body that ring can only be designed and manufactured at 1 diameter and that diameter will be the size that performs the primary size reduction required to give the case the neck gripping dimension.
Unfortunately because there is only a single sizing ring the whole case length (except for the solid case head) gets reduced to neck diameter. Now when a bullet is seated the case neck is stretched larger by about 2 thou. (0.002”). So now the finished cartridge has an odd look with the case neck swollen larger by bullet insertion, below the neck the body of the cases is at the reduced neck size and the solid case head is of course at the factory made size.
So with the center of the case body at this reduced size the finished cartridge looks wasp waisted or like a classic Coca Cola bottle.
The only advantage the single carbide ring sizing dies provide is to allow for skipping the case lubing step in the reloading process.
Skipping the lubing step is only an advantage to reloaders using automatic reloading machines that can manufacture several hundred cartridges per hour.
By skipping the lube, the process is speeded up in these machines. The carbide ring sizing dies was made for use in the reloading machines but anyone can use this type of sizing die in their single stage press. But those users will get funny looking ammo.
The down side disadvantage of the single ring carbide sizing dies is reduced case life from over working the case brass.
Now the reloader will be seeing case body splits as well as the usual cases mouth splits.
With annealing the whole case batch at first detection of a case split (any where) will likely salvage the rest of that case batch.

9x19 cartridge case are tapered cases, it’s the taper that make this cartridge unsuitable to be sized with a single ring carbide die.
I do use some Redding Dual Ring carbide sizing dies in 38 Spl. & 357 mag and 45 Colt but all these cases are straight wall cases so the dual ring sizing die works just as well as the old style solid steel sizer.
I still apply lube when using the dual ring dies because the Redding instructions say to lube for increased ease of sizing and less wear on brass and die.
Knowing now about single and dual ring and solid steel sizer dies my preference now is to buy solid steel, there best. Next is the dual ring.
Never again will I use first die set I purchased, a Lyman set with single ring sizer for 38 Spl/357mag.
It worked but it made funny looking ammo.

Greenjoytj nailed it! A single (short) carbide ring takes out the taper in the 9mm case. Seat a bullet and the mouth increases in size to make the round look "wasp-waisted." Some companies tried to deal with this by using two carbide rings of slightly different diameter. Carbide and machining it is expensive, so smaller dual rings is presumably cheaper.

What you really want is a full length carbide insert. Not really a "ring" since the carbide insert is as long as a 9mm case. They machine in the taper inherent to the 9mm case. My 1990's RCBS carbide sizing die is built this way. It was pricey back then. I don't know if anybody makes one these days or if they're cost prohibitive. You can easily see this long insert inside the die. I'd scour the gunshows for one from years past.

Your other option is a plain steel (non-carbide) die which should be machined to address the 9mm's taper. Of course, you get to lube cases with that approach.

If reduced case life is the only problem....Then I don't see a problem with using carbide dies.

I can't imagine wearing out a 9mm case, and if you do, so what? People leave them lying on the ground. It's not like they are 357, 44 mag, 22 Hornet, etc cases.

I ROLL SIZE MY 9MM AND 45ACP BRASS.

Unfortunately the Lee undersizers are necessary for me for range brass pickup as my chambers are tight and they work wonderfully for this purpose.
On a side note, using heavy plated projectiles do make the rounds bulge a little at the top- i wonder if this is what OP is describing

Also my hornady Ti dies are great for pistol catridges and I dont need to use any lube except i do use NuFinish in my tumbler and the cases might be a little slick from that

__________________
Romans5:8

My thoughts exactly.
All my dies are single carbide ring.
I probably have enough 9mm cases to arm a regiment if it were all loaded up, so I don't worry about any of them splitting.
As for the wasp-waisted appearance of the reloaded ammo, that doesn't bother me either. Doesn't seem to affect how it shoots.
And since it isn't even an issue with the more expensive straight-walled pistol cases, I can't see any reason why I need to be concerned about it.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

There are many strange 9mm cases scattered across every range.
Varying wall thickness, stepped insides and who knows what else can cause some odd variations. If you load pickups, always a good idea to sort them.
I got sick of sorting out military, imported and other junk.
Just buy once fired LE brass.
And I use Lee sizing dies with no Coke problems.

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

I have loaded lots of 9mm over the years. I expect I'll do it again in the future someday. Maybe . . . .

For now, I don't load 9mm. I shoot it primarily in plate matches where accuracy isn't paramount. Targets are big and close. The ammo has to go bang and clang a plate - quickly. Shooting fast is what matters; accuracy not so much.

So I shoot LAX remanufactured ammo and don't obsess about getting my empty cases back. LAX reman is all mixed cases and your cases get mixed with everybody else's anyway. LAX does the inspection and sorting, prices are darn near the cost of today's components, and I don't have to spend time pulling the handle on a Dillon. Candidly I'm more keen on loading accurate long range rifle ammo.

I know this doesn't address OP's post. I only mention it because I think it's worth pondering the value of loading 9mm. It might not be worth it for you. For some of us, handloading is enjoyment in itself. For others, it's a chore. Some, like me, have a foot in both buckets.

I enjoy hand loading for bolt action rifles. Tailoring a .44 Special or .45 Colt round to be a nice, light target load or a “hot” (relatively) load is kind of fun. However, 9mm Luger ammunition is cheap and plentiful. I have reloaded it on occasion, but only when it was hard to find. My feelings about .223/5.56 are similar - as long as it goes “BANG!” And cycles the action I don’t care about much more. If I want accuracy, other cartridges are much more interesting to me.

Is your Lee sizing die steel or carbide? Mine is carbide, and produces the Coke bottle shape. My Redding is steel and does not produce the funny shape, but I don't like messing with the case lube.

The Coke bottle cases do not get sized all the way to the bottom of the cases and drag on the ides of my P.08 magazines, causing feeding failures. The cases sized in the Redding die get sized all the way and do not drag on the sides of the magazine.

I pointed out the reason above in #13. I suppose it's tacky for me to quote myself . . . . (I have been called worse )

If you have a full length carbide insert in your carbide die, it's shaped like a plain steel die. It has the right taper. Manufacturers have gotten cost-sensitive (cheap) and often use a short carbide ring. It's that short carbide ring that's the problem, not the carbide itself. A short ring can work for straight-wall revolver cases, but it produces the coke bottle look on a tapered case.

Also, many carbide dies have a pronounced bell which prevents sizing down to the rim. Some are geared toward progressive presses where the alignment isn't so precise. It also reduces the potential for cracking the brittle carbide ring. Without the bell, the carbide ring would go down far enough that it might try to compress the diameter of the case head. It won't and may crack. Steel dies can go further down; they're not so brittle and prone to cracking.

As an aside, this is why we are warned against cam-over when setting up carbide dies in a press. Compress the carbide with the ram and it can crack. Not such a worry with plain steel dies.

Been using a Lee die set form my 9mm now for the last four years with no issues/no lube

If I had to buy components at today's prices to reload it, I probably wouldn't reload 9mm either.

But I have more components than I will likely ever use and all were bought 4 or more years ago when the prices were 1/2-1/3 of what they are today - like $0.02 primers, $15/lb powder, and $0.05 bullets. So I can still load 9mm for under $5 per box of 50. At that rate it is still worth it to me.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

I'm not familiar with the term cam-over. Can you elaborate on that a little more? What is it?

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

As the handle is lowered on a press, the ram will rise to its highest position. The handle will be almost to its lowest position. As the handle is lowered even further, the ram will begin to descend. At that point the linkage has "cammed over". The ram can go no higher, and will start to descend.

Thanks for the explanation.
So then the idea is to NOT reach that point where the ram stops moving upward and begins to descend?
At what point in this process is there a danger of breaking the carbide ring?
If at the top of the ram's stroke the shell plate is just barely making contact with the bottom of the sizing die, how does over-camming (reaching the point that the ram starts to descend) put additional stress on the carbide ring?
I'm trying to understand - because I certainly don't want to damage any of my dies.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

The carbide ring must not touch the shell holder (mounted in the top of the ram) even at the ram's highest point (cam over) or there is a good chance of breaking the carbide ring.

Standard steel sizing dies are to be adjusted so the bottom of the die touches the shell holder slightly before it cams over, so the brass casing is inserted into the sizing die as far as possible, insuring maximum case length sizing. The steel sizing die will not break.

Thanks again. I didn't realize the carbide ring was all the way at the bottom of the die - I thought it was recessed into the body of the die a little. I'll take another look at mine.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

I used a mix of lanoline and alcohol for 45 years as case lube regardless of die type or press type . I lay the case down flat on a old Tupperware container give them a couple pulls on the sprayer and then spend a few minutes rolling them all arounds to help spread the lube a bit more and that is a 9 to 1 mix alcohol to lanoline . And if a little lubes gets in the case mouth is not an issue ether . A well lube the first brass totally and the rest spread there small amount around in a dies evenly with use and to each additional die.

The directions to set sizing dies to "cam over" was to take all the play out of press linkage and get firm contact with the ram out on the sizing die. Largely intended for rifle cartridges where the die establishes headspace. (I only do this on a very few rifle cartridges.)

Originally, when using carbide dies, the die was supposed to be set so that there was about the thickness of a nickel between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. This was to avoid shell holder contact with the carbide insert. Those older dies have minimal chamfer at the bottom of the die and the insert is flush with the bottom of the die. I've got a Lyman .38/.357 die made that way. Lining up the case is a bit of a bother.

Then some bright soul realized that recessing the insert slightly from the die bottom solved the problem of cracked inserts for those who don't read directions. A more generous chamfer on the mouth was necessary for both progressive presses and the clueless.

In almost sixty years of handloading for many standard and wildcat cartridges, I've found two instances where a cam over die adjustment was required. In one instance a change of size die solved the problem. I'm not in favor of the cam over procedure and there is a possibility that the handloader is doing something wrong. That's not a criticism, just something worth checking.

After a 9 mm loading session I have some additional comments.

1. The RCBS TC sizing dies do in fact have a full length insert that sizes the case to form a taper. My latest ones are 2014. Being very picky, I found that as currently adjusted, when loading 0.356 plated bullets, there may be a variable wasp waist of up to 0.002 in. With jacketed bullets, there's none. A perfectionist might adjust the die. I'm not gonna, case wall thickness can vary the results. If I haven't had a problem after thousands of rounds, it's not worth fixing.

2. With due apologies to Mr. Sear, a dial indicator on my RCBS IV Rock Chucker Supreme shows that the ram continues to move upward until the handle bottoms out. The linkage on other designs may be produce different results. As might a lot of wear.

I'm not gonna try that on my 50+ year old Lyman Spartan. It's kinda wobbly. The linkage shows that the last bit of handle movement moves the bottom end of the ram link horizontally. If the ram does drop, it's only very, very slightly. The one size die I have set to contact the shell holder does so long before the ram reaches that point.

I pretty much only use the Lyman for very small batches or seating primers of a different size than the RCBS press is set up for.

It’s a nonissue. 9 mm ammo with coke bottle shape works great. Shot many thousands of rounds.

My thoughts as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
IMO, this seems like a solution in search of a problem.
But I'm always open to being corrected if I'm off base...

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Completely agree. My 9 reloads often have the hourglass shape-but the pass the plunk test, feed well and shoot well.
Not a beauty contest. Some time back I read a discourse on-line why reloaded 9 (as an example) are metallurgically prone to the wasp shape and fresh factory loads are not.
I’m not going to anneal straight walled fired brass for cosmetic reasons… but conversely I do like to give them a fresh-tumble-polish for appearances.
To each his own.
Cheers

__________________
Tim

It never affected my reloads either. As someone else pointed out, it may actually help to minimize bullet setback as the round is stripped from the magazine and bangs its way up the feed ramp and into the chamber.

__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA

The main thing wrong with this country today is that we have so few real problems we feel compelled to make them up.

This entire thread is one of those situations...

Don't overthink yourself into "First World" problems. A slightly malformed round that still feeds, fires and extracts with no difficulty is not a problem.

__________________
Pisgah

As mentioned above roll sizing is probably the best way to get rid of most of that coke bottle issue.

You can also look at the Dillon Precision carbide dies, they have a very generous taper at the mouth because they're designed for use in their progressive presses, it doesn't get rid of that base sizing issue but it makes it much less noticeable.

Some of you dudes need to work on your reading comprehension skills!

As stated earlier, I wanted a carbide die that would not give the cases a "Coke bottle" shape. This wasn't for cosmetic reasons, but because the carbide Hornady and Lee sizing dies do not size close enough to the case heads to re-size them to original specs. My plain steel Redding sizer does. I want to get a sizer die like that in carbide, or similar, that does not need cases to be lubed. The reason for not wanting to lubricate the cases should be self-explanatory for even the dullest among us (maybe I'm wrong). My P.08 is finicky about ammo, and ammo made from these slightly wider cases drags on the (single column) magazine body enough to produce sluggish operation of the magazine, creating frequent feeding stoppages. I don't get these when I use the plain steel Redding sizing die.

Get it now?

it has NOTHING to do with aesthetics.

I for one fully understood your issue - including the fact that the wasp-waisted reloads from the carbide die don't feed well in your P08. Though you didn't mention that issue until after several of us had replied to your original post.

My comments were basically to say that i haven't experienced that problem with any of my guns - even with my vintage Luger (pictured below).

As I recall, it seems that I have read that some die makers (possibly Lee) make a carbide die commonly referred to as a "bulge buster" die (for resizing cases that have bulged due to an unsuppported <cough> GLOCK <cough> chamber), that resizes the brass right down to the base.

That may be one solution to the problem you're trying to solve. Just a thought...

Attached Images

	RtSide.jpg (91.3 KB, 3 views)
	LftSide.jpg (91.4 KB, 3 views)

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Thanks, BC38. I will look into that.

My byf 41. A post with a gun picture would not be complete without a finger on the trigger...

PS My P.38, even with is single column magazine, feeds everything without flaw.

Attached Images

	20240519_172216.jpg (86.7 KB, 10 views)
	20240411_180627.jpg (134.0 KB, 8 views)
	20240429_122836.jpg (76.7 KB, 8 views)

Nice looking old Luger. Sorry, but I don't have the depth of knowledge about them to know what "byf 41" means. What vintage and manufacturer is it? All numbers matching? 100% original finish? I see the extractor is in the original "straw" but can't tell if the same is true for the trigger and safety lever in the attached photo.

How about that wood-button mag? Does it also number to the gun? Mine came with an aluminum-button mag with a different SN, but at least it is still period-correct for the gun. Obviously mine has been refinished (nickel plated), so the mis-matched SN on the mag is less of an issue. But, FWIW, other than the mag, mine is an all SN matching gun.

AFAIK, the Mec-gar mags - like the one on the right in your picture - are about as good as it gets for aftermarket magazines. I have 3 of them and they have always performed flawlessly for me.

Do you have the same feeding problem shooting your reloads through the aftermarket mags? Or is that problem unique to the original mag?

I've always thought the P08 was just about the sexiest pistol ever made. I was positively THRILLED when I got a chance to purchase mine at a reasonable price a few years ago (due to the non-original finish). I got one of my grail guns at a price I could live with.

That is absolutely, 100%, a WIN in my book.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Yes this dull boy gets it now and I would have kept quiet had your original post had the details that the quote above contains. Cant read your mind about your P.08 feeding issue that are not mentioned in the original post.
Good day sir.

__________________
Tim

BC38, regarding my P.08, byf was a wartime production code for the Mauser factory. 41 indicates the year of production (1941). 48 are the last two digits of the four-digit serial number, not considering the letter block, written in cursive near the serial number. The finish is original, but worn in a few areas.

Germany invented the hot-dip oxide caustic blueing process in the 1930s. Around 1938, P.08 pistols were no longer rust blued, but caustic blued. At this time, "straw color" was dropped as unnecessary and a waste of time, so from then on, all P.08 parts were blued. You noted the straw coloring on my pistol's ejector, but it is actually just discolored blue and strange lighting in my garage. All numbered parts on my pistol are matching. All of the magazines are aftermarket, one marketed by Stoeger (unknown maker, wooden bottom), and two MEC-GAR; one blue and one stainless. I replaced the black plastic magazine bottom on the blued one with a reproduction aluminum one that I found on Ebay. All three of these magazines feed very well with the right ammo (when cases are sized using the plain steel Redding die). Once I started using the plain steel sizing die, my feeding problems went away. I let two young friends of mine shoot it last Friday at my gun club. They were both familiar with the pistol type, but had never seen one or fired one. One of them commented, "Wow! That is an icon!"

I had a very similar pistol years ago with an original magazine. It fed very poorly. I had two aftermarket magazines that worked no better.

My P.38 is marked byf 43, which means it was manufactured by Mauser in 1943. I bought this pistol from the GI who brought it back from WWII. It has all matching parts.

I had the extremely good fortune of touring the Mauser factory in 1988! They happened to be building P.08 pistols at the moment! I was allowed to wander around the factory floor on my own. Of course, I was not allowed into the current military arms production area.

Both my P.08 and P.38 function extremely well with my hand loaded ammo using my home-cast 120 grain truncated cone bullets.

What are the stamps on the top of your P.08? Maybe I can answer a few questions about it.

Attached Images

	20240610_191101.jpg (85.5 KB, 9 views)
	20240610_191126.jpg (89.7 KB, 6 views)
	20240610_202828.jpg (73.2 KB, 5 views)

One of the things i like about the LFC is the carbide ring sizes slightly lower down on the case than the Redding carbide sizer am using. That burnished area nearer to base is from the LFC

Attached Images

IMG_1237.jpg (34.3 KB, 8 views)