9mm non-Coke bottle carbide sizing die

[Warren Sear]

There are many strange 9mm cases scattered across every range.
Varying wall thickness, stepped insides and who knows what else can cause some odd variations. If you load pickups, always a good idea to sort them.
I got sick of sorting out military, imported and other junk.
Just buy once fired LE brass.
And I use Lee sizing dies with no Coke problems.

Is your Lee sizing die steel or carbide? Mine is carbide, and produces the Coke bottle shape. My Redding is steel and does not produce the funny shape, but I don't like messing with the case lube.

The Coke bottle cases do not get sized all the way to the bottom of the cases and drag on the ides of my P.08 magazines, causing feeding failures. The cases sized in the Redding die get sized all the way and do not drag on the sides of the magazine.

 

[Krogen]

Is your Lee sizing die steel or carbide? Mine is carbide, and produces the Coke bottle shape. My Redding is steel and does not produce the funny shape, but I don't like messing with the case lube.

The Coke bottle cases do not get sized all the way to the bottom of the cases and drag on the ides of my P.08 magazines, causing feeding failures. The cases sized in the Redding die get sized all the way and do not drag on the sides of the magazine.

I pointed out the reason above in #13. I suppose it's tacky for me to quote myself . . . . (I have been called worse )

If you have a full length carbide insert in your carbide die, it's shaped like a plain steel die. It has the right taper. Manufacturers have gotten cost-sensitive (cheap) and often use a short carbide ring. It's that short carbide ring that's the problem, not the carbide itself. A short ring can work for straight-wall revolver cases, but it produces the coke bottle look on a tapered case.

Also, many carbide dies have a pronounced bell which prevents sizing down to the rim. Some are geared toward progressive presses where the alignment isn't so precise. It also reduces the potential for cracking the brittle carbide ring. Without the bell, the carbide ring would go down far enough that it might try to compress the diameter of the case head. It won't and may crack. Steel dies can go further down; they're not so brittle and prone to cracking.

As an aside, this is why we are warned against cam-over when setting up carbide dies in a press. Compress the carbide with the ram and it can crack. Not such a worry with plain steel dies.

 

[elpac3]

Been using a Lee die set form my 9mm now for the last four years with no issues/no lube

 

[BC38]

I have loaded lots of 9mm over the years. I expect I'll do it again in the future someday. Maybe . . . .

For now, I don't load 9mm. I shoot it primarily in plate matches where accuracy isn't paramount. Targets are big and close. The ammo has to go bang and clang a plate - quickly. Shooting fast is what matters; accuracy not so much.

So I shoot LAX remanufactured ammo and don't obsess about getting my empty cases back. LAX reman is all mixed cases and your cases get mixed with everybody else's anyway. LAX does the inspection and sorting, prices are darn near the cost of today's components, and I don't have to spend time pulling the handle on a Dillon. Candidly I'm more keen on loading accurate long range rifle ammo.

I know this doesn't address OP's post. I only mention it because I think it's worth pondering the value of loading 9mm. It might not be worth it for you. For some of us, handloading is enjoyment in itself. For others, it's a chore. Some, like me, have a foot in both buckets.

If I had to buy components at today's prices to reload it, I probably wouldn't reload 9mm either.

But I have more components than I will likely ever use and all were bought 4 or more years ago when the prices were 1/2-1/3 of what they are today - like $0.02 primers, $15/lb powder, and $0.05 bullets. So I can still load 9mm for under $5 per box of 50. At that rate it is still worth it to me.

 

[BC38]

I pointed out the reason above in #13. I suppose it's tacky for me to quote myself . . . . (I have been called worse )

If you have a full length carbide insert in your carbide die, it's shaped like a plain steel die. It has the right taper. Manufacturers have gotten cost-sensitive (cheap) and often use a short carbide ring. It's that short carbide ring that's the problem, not the carbide itself. A short ring can work for straight-wall revolver cases, but it produces the coke bottle look on a tapered case.

Also, many carbide dies have a pronounced bell which prevents sizing down to the rim. Some are geared toward progressive presses where the alignment isn't so precise. It also reduces the potential for cracking the brittle carbide ring. Without the bell, the carbide ring would go down far enough that it might try to compress the diameter of the case head. It won't and may crack. Steel dies can go further down; they're not so brittle and prone to cracking.

As an aside, this is why we are warned against cam-over when setting up carbide dies in a press. Compress the carbide with the ram and it can crack. Not such a worry with plain steel dies.

I'm not familiar with the term cam-over. Can you elaborate on that a little more? What is it?

 

[Warren Sear]

I'm not familiar with the term cam-over. Can you elaborate on that a little more? What is it?

As the handle is lowered on a press, the ram will rise to its highest position. The handle will be almost to its lowest position. As the handle is lowered even further, the ram will begin to descend. At that point the linkage has "cammed over". The ram can go no higher, and will start to descend.

 

[BC38]

As the handle is lowered on a press, the ram will rise to its highest position. The handle will be almost to its lowest position. As the handle is lowered even further, the ram will begin to descend. At that point the linkage has "cammed over". The ram can go no higher, and will start to descend.

Thanks for the explanation.
So then the idea is to NOT reach that point where the ram stops moving upward and begins to descend?
At what point in this process is there a danger of breaking the carbide ring?
If at the top of the ram's stroke the shell plate is just barely making contact with the bottom of the sizing die, how does over-camming (reaching the point that the ram starts to descend) put additional stress on the carbide ring?
I'm trying to understand - because I certainly don't want to damage any of my dies.

 

[Warren Sear]

The carbide ring must not touch the shell holder (mounted in the top of the ram) even at the ram's highest point (cam over) or there is a good chance of breaking the carbide ring.

Standard steel sizing dies are to be adjusted so the bottom of the die touches the shell holder slightly before it cams over, so the brass casing is inserted into the sizing die as far as possible, insuring maximum case length sizing. The steel sizing die will not break.

 

[BC38]

The carbide ring must not touch the shell holder (mounted in the top of the ram) even at the ram's highest point (cam over) or there is a good chance of breaking the carbide ring.

Standard steel sizing dies are to be adjusted so the bottom of the die touches the shell holder slightly before it cams over, so the brass casing is inserted into the sizing die as far as possible, insuring maximum case length sizing. The steel sizing die will not break.

Thanks again. I didn't realize the carbide ring was all the way at the bottom of the die - I thought it was recessed into the body of the die a little. I'll take another look at mine.

 

[hardluk1]

I used a mix of lanoline and alcohol for 45 years as case lube regardless of die type or press type . I lay the case down flat on a old Tupperware container give them a couple pulls on the sprayer and then spend a few minutes rolling them all arounds to help spread the lube a bit more and that is a 9 to 1 mix alcohol to lanoline . And if a little lubes gets in the case mouth is not an issue ether . A well lube the first brass totally and the rest spread there small amount around in a dies evenly with use and to each additional die.

 

[WR Moore]

The directions to set sizing dies to "cam over" was to take all the play out of press linkage and get firm contact with the ram out on the sizing die. Largely intended for rifle cartridges where the die establishes headspace. (I only do this on a very few rifle cartridges.)

Originally, when using carbide dies, the die was supposed to be set so that there was about the thickness of a nickel between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. This was to avoid shell holder contact with the carbide insert. Those older dies have minimal chamfer at the bottom of the die and the insert is flush with the bottom of the die. I've got a Lyman .38/.357 die made that way. Lining up the case is a bit of a bother.

Then some bright soul realized that recessing the insert slightly from the die bottom solved the problem of cracked inserts for those who don't read directions. A more generous chamfer on the mouth was necessary for both progressive presses and the clueless.

 

[rockquarry]

In almost sixty years of handloading for many standard and wildcat cartridges, I've found two instances where a cam over die adjustment was required. In one instance a change of size die solved the problem. I'm not in favor of the cam over procedure and there is a possibility that the handloader is doing something wrong. That's not a criticism, just something worth checking.

 

[WR Moore]

After a 9 mm loading session I have some additional comments.

1. The RCBS TC sizing dies do in fact have a full length insert that sizes the case to form a taper. My latest ones are 2014. Being very picky, I found that as currently adjusted, when loading 0.356 plated bullets, there may be a variable wasp waist of up to 0.002 in. With jacketed bullets, there's none. A perfectionist might adjust the die. I'm not gonna, case wall thickness can vary the results. If I haven't had a problem after thousands of rounds, it's not worth fixing.

2. With due apologies to Mr. Sear, a dial indicator on my RCBS IV Rock Chucker Supreme shows that the ram continues to move upward until the handle bottoms out. The linkage on other designs may be produce different results. As might a lot of wear.

I'm not gonna try that on my 50+ year old Lyman Spartan. It's kinda wobbly. The linkage shows that the last bit of handle movement moves the bottom end of the ram link horizontally. If the ram does drop, it's only very, very slightly. The one size die I have set to contact the shell holder does so long before the ram reaches that point.

I pretty much only use the Lyman for very small batches or seating primers of a different size than the RCBS press is set up for.

 

[dogdoc]

It’s a nonissue. 9 mm ammo with coke bottle shape works great. Shot many thousands of rounds.

 

[BC38]

It’s a nonissue. 9 mm ammo with coke bottle shape works great. Shot many thousands of rounds.

My thoughts as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
IMO, this seems like a solution in search of a problem.
But I'm always open to being corrected if I'm off base...

 

[Timothy2700]

As for the wasp-waisted appearance of the reloaded ammo, that doesn't bother me either. Doesn't seem to affect how it shoots.
….I can't see any reason why I need to be concerned about it.

Completely agree. My 9 reloads often have the hourglass shape-but the pass the plunk test, feed well and shoot well.
Not a beauty contest. Some time back I read a discourse on-line why reloaded 9 (as an example) are metallurgically prone to the wasp shape and fresh factory loads are not.
I’m not going to anneal straight walled fired brass for cosmetic reasons… but conversely I do like to give them a fresh-tumble-polish for appearances.
To each his own.
Cheers

 

[stansdds]

It’s a nonissue. 9 mm ammo with coke bottle shape works great. Shot many thousands of rounds.

It never affected my reloads either. As someone else pointed out, it may actually help to minimize bullet setback as the round is stripped from the magazine and bangs its way up the feed ramp and into the chamber.

 

[Pisgah]

The main thing wrong with this country today is that we have so few real problems we feel compelled to make them up.

This entire thread is one of those situations...

Don't overthink yourself into "First World" problems. A slightly malformed round that still feeds, fires and extracts with no difficulty is not a problem.

 

[kend]

As mentioned above roll sizing is probably the best way to get rid of most of that coke bottle issue.

You can also look at the Dillon Precision carbide dies, they have a very generous taper at the mouth because they're designed for use in their progressive presses, it doesn't get rid of that base sizing issue but it makes it much less noticeable.

 

[Warren Sear]

Some of you dudes need to work on your reading comprehension skills!

As stated earlier, I wanted a carbide die that would not give the cases a "Coke bottle" shape. This wasn't for cosmetic reasons, but because the carbide Hornady and Lee sizing dies do not size close enough to the case heads to re-size them to original specs. My plain steel Redding sizer does. I want to get a sizer die like that in carbide, or similar, that does not need cases to be lubed. The reason for not wanting to lubricate the cases should be self-explanatory for even the dullest among us (maybe I'm wrong). My P.08 is finicky about ammo, and ammo made from these slightly wider cases drags on the (single column) magazine body enough to produce sluggish operation of the magazine, creating frequent feeding stoppages. I don't get these when I use the plain steel Redding sizing die.

Get it now?

it has NOTHING to do with aesthetics.