DWalt
Member
Does anyone know if there is a listing on the S&W site that provides, by model, the last pre-1899 S&W SN qualifying as an antique? If not, can someone post such a list?
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Pre-1899 SN Listing for S&W?
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deadin
US Veteran
I don't know that anyone has ever compiled a comprehensive list of pre-1899 serials. The main problem is that S&W didn't keep such records (that are currently accessible) and they didn't ship in serial number order.
About the best you can do is get a factory letter showing shipping date. You usually can get fairly close by posting a serial number and seeing if anybody else has lettered a gun close to your number. This isn't foolproof, but it will usually get you in the ballpark.
About the best you can do is get a factory letter showing shipping date. You usually can get fairly close by posting a serial number and seeing if anybody else has lettered a gun close to your number. This isn't foolproof, but it will usually get you in the ballpark.
Leidangbonde
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Hello DWalt
Have you looked at page 74 in Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson ? Is that list You want?
Have you looked at page 74 in Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson ? Is that list You want?
deadin
US Veteran
Interesting! That's what I get for not reading every page/
I wonder how the data was determined?
I wonder how the data was determined?
cflier
Member
I believe everything on the list on page 74 is correct EXCEPT for 32 Safety Hammerless. The pre 1898 cut off is around 81000 on the 32 Safety Hammerless revolvers. I had the exact number written down but can't find it at the moment. I got the information from one of the reams of publications sent to me by the BATF several years ago when they still sent paper materials out to C&R license holders. I have several guns between 85000 and 94000 listed in my data base that were shipped after 1887. One of them is a gun that I lettered personally. I would guess that the info on page 74 of the SCSW is a typo.
Mark
Mark
opoefc
US Veteran
Mark, The 91,000 serial number cut off for .32 safeties is not a typo in the SCSW. That number appears on many lists of cut off date numbers of antiques vs. C&Rs printed before the SCSW was even a gleam in Supica & Nahas's eyes. That, of course, doesn't make it correct and the ATF usually goes by the S&W shipping date to determine whether a .32 Safety is an antique, or not. I think you will find that a lot of the guns between 81,000 and 91,000 didn't get shipped until after 1898, and we can safely assume that the 91,000 number is just an educated guess by someone years ago, based on whatever info. they may have had at the time. I doubt that S&W had a crystal ball that told them that 36 yrs. in the future the Nat'l Firearms Act was going to define 1898 as a cut off date for antiques and they stopped at number 91,000 on New Years eve 1898 ! Now, having said the above, we are somewhat blessed in that the Floor Foreman's Day books that recorded by date and serial number every .32 Safety made in the 1880s & 1890s in in the collection of one of our members. Using that info, I was able to verify the date the first .32 safety 2 inch "Bicycle" gun in my collection, serial number 53252, was made ( 1890) and shipped in (1894). Ed. #15
cflier
Member
Hello Ed,
I based my numbers on several sources and common sense. The 1st model 32 Safety was manufactured until 1902 with a total completion number of 91417. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect S&W to have only shipped 417 units in 4 years. It was a popular item at that time.
Also I remember finding the number 81000 something as the cut off date in the BATF literature some time ago. The problem is I can't find that particular book now among the reams of material I have recieved from them. I know that the guns were shipped out of numerical order, but not that many of them. Lastly, I have never seen or heard of a 32 Safety with a serial number over 85000 being shipped before 1898. There are many instances of guns being shipped later than their classmates but none that I've ever seen were shipped earlier. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life, and I hope this is another as it would make it easier for me to buy and ship guns in the future. Lord knows that you have a lot more knowledge and history with the old Smiths than I do.
Maybe I'll ask Roy. Didn't I read somewhere that the BATF contacted him to establish the cut off dates.
Mark
I based my numbers on several sources and common sense. The 1st model 32 Safety was manufactured until 1902 with a total completion number of 91417. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect S&W to have only shipped 417 units in 4 years. It was a popular item at that time.
Also I remember finding the number 81000 something as the cut off date in the BATF literature some time ago. The problem is I can't find that particular book now among the reams of material I have recieved from them. I know that the guns were shipped out of numerical order, but not that many of them. Lastly, I have never seen or heard of a 32 Safety with a serial number over 85000 being shipped before 1898. There are many instances of guns being shipped later than their classmates but none that I've ever seen were shipped earlier. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life, and I hope this is another as it would make it easier for me to buy and ship guns in the future. Lord knows that you have a lot more knowledge and history with the old Smiths than I do.
Maybe I'll ask Roy. Didn't I read somewhere that the BATF contacted him to establish the cut off dates.
Mark
OP
DWalt
Member
Pre-1899 S&W Serial Numbers Listing
As no one seems to know the answer to my original question, except to provide a reference to the S&W catalog (which I do not have), I did a little internet searching and found the following useful information on a website entitled "Pre-1899 Firearms FAQ" by James Rawles, Clearwater Trading Company, dated April 30, 2004. I won't include the website address, but you can Google it from the foregoing information. It includes serial numbers for virtually all pre-1899 weapon makes, not just S&W. Below is the S&W information presented, for which I make no claims of accuracy on the part of Mr. Rawles:
S&W Single Action (SA) .32 and .38 top break revolvers, all are pre-1899
(S&W Spur Trigger: With the exception of one rare S&W model, production of single-action spur trigger revolver frames had essentatially stopped by 1892. So, just about all of these will be antiques.)
S&W Double Action (DA) .32 top break revolvers w/hammer (serial # below 209301)
S&W DA .32 top break hammerless ("lemon squeezer") revolvers (serial # below 91400)
S&W DA .38 top break revolvers with hammer (serial # below 382022)
S&W DA .38 top break hammerless ("lemon squeezer") revolvers (serial # below 119900)
S&W Model 3 and New Model 3 single action revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W .45 Schofield revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W DA First Model revolver, all are pre-1899
S&W DA "Frontier" revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W DA "Favorite" revolvers, all are pre-1899
Important Note: An article by Roy Jinks (S&W factory historian), some years ago reported that all of the *frames* for the large frame top-break S&W's were made prior to 1899, and hence all New Model #3's, .44 DA 1st Models, DA Frontiers, and related models are considered "antique" by the ATF, even though they may have been cataloged and even
assembled well into the early 20th century. Special thanks to Roy Jinks and the S&W Colloctor's Association for this information.
S&W Model 1891, all are pre-1899
S&W 1st Model hand ejector (.32s only), all are pre-1899
As no one seems to know the answer to my original question, except to provide a reference to the S&W catalog (which I do not have), I did a little internet searching and found the following useful information on a website entitled "Pre-1899 Firearms FAQ" by James Rawles, Clearwater Trading Company, dated April 30, 2004. I won't include the website address, but you can Google it from the foregoing information. It includes serial numbers for virtually all pre-1899 weapon makes, not just S&W. Below is the S&W information presented, for which I make no claims of accuracy on the part of Mr. Rawles:
S&W Single Action (SA) .32 and .38 top break revolvers, all are pre-1899
(S&W Spur Trigger: With the exception of one rare S&W model, production of single-action spur trigger revolver frames had essentatially stopped by 1892. So, just about all of these will be antiques.)
S&W Double Action (DA) .32 top break revolvers w/hammer (serial # below 209301)
S&W DA .32 top break hammerless ("lemon squeezer") revolvers (serial # below 91400)
S&W DA .38 top break revolvers with hammer (serial # below 382022)
S&W DA .38 top break hammerless ("lemon squeezer") revolvers (serial # below 119900)
S&W Model 3 and New Model 3 single action revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W .45 Schofield revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W DA First Model revolver, all are pre-1899
S&W DA "Frontier" revolvers, all are pre-1899
S&W DA "Favorite" revolvers, all are pre-1899
Important Note: An article by Roy Jinks (S&W factory historian), some years ago reported that all of the *frames* for the large frame top-break S&W's were made prior to 1899, and hence all New Model #3's, .44 DA 1st Models, DA Frontiers, and related models are considered "antique" by the ATF, even though they may have been cataloged and even
assembled well into the early 20th century. Special thanks to Roy Jinks and the S&W Colloctor's Association for this information.
S&W Model 1891, all are pre-1899
S&W 1st Model hand ejector (.32s only), all are pre-1899
deadin
US Veteran
Amazing what can be found on the Internet.....
It appears that Mr. Rawles does have a copy of the S&W Standard Catalog.......
These numbers came from Roy Jinks and he will be the first one to admit that they are just an educated guess as the actual numbers don't exist.
opoefc
US Veteran
Mark, I don't know that I have anymore smarts about lemon squeezers than you, as your posts are always right on the money. I can't disagree with your logic that it's unlikely that only 417 units were shipped in 4 yrs., although the .38 cals were out selling the .32s at that time.
There are higher numbers than 91417. For example, 91757 was shipped in Oct 1900. 88021 shipped in July 1899. That's almost 3800 serial numbers difference which indicates strongly that 417 sales in 4 yrs. is way too low. The origin of the 91,000 cut off number may not be in the ship dates, but in the manufacturing records, like the .44 DAs. In cases where I checked the Foreman's day book record of the date a .32 Safety was made vs. the ship date, I found intervals of 2 to 5 years shipping after manufacture. The BATF lists the highest serial number for a .32 Safety hammerless as being 91,400 for qualification as an antique. This leads me to conclude that the BATF uses the manufature date for .32 Safetys. Hope this helps. Ed #15
There are higher numbers than 91417. For example, 91757 was shipped in Oct 1900. 88021 shipped in July 1899. That's almost 3800 serial numbers difference which indicates strongly that 417 sales in 4 yrs. is way too low. The origin of the 91,000 cut off number may not be in the ship dates, but in the manufacturing records, like the .44 DAs. In cases where I checked the Foreman's day book record of the date a .32 Safety was made vs. the ship date, I found intervals of 2 to 5 years shipping after manufacture. The BATF lists the highest serial number for a .32 Safety hammerless as being 91,400 for qualification as an antique. This leads me to conclude that the BATF uses the manufature date for .32 Safetys. Hope this helps. Ed #15
cflier
Member
Thanks Ed,
I'm going to go with the 90400 number from now on. It makes my collecting addiction easier.
Mark
I'm going to go with the 90400 number from now on. It makes my collecting addiction easier.
Mark
Buffalo Nichols
US Veteran
I am a little confused as there appears to be 2 standards in use here, date of manufacture and date of shipping. I have collected NM#3's for years and the standard answer as to status on these has always been
" all of the frames were manufactured prior to 1899 therefore all are are considered antiques regardless of ship dates".
I am a CR holder and according the the list provided to me by the BATFE with my licence the following by model are considered to be Curio and Relics in Section 2 page 28. (their nomenclature)
32 DA Top Break s/n 209302 and higher
32 Safety Hammerless Top Break ( New departure) s/n 91401 and higher
38 DA Top Break Perfected (all)
38 DA Top Break s/n 383023 and higher
38 Safety Hammerless Tp Break (New departure) s/n 19901 and higher
Therfore based on the official BATFE publication any serial numbers made prior to their cut number should be considered antiques and as such are unregulated. Please correct me if my logic is faulty.
BN
" all of the frames were manufactured prior to 1899 therefore all are are considered antiques regardless of ship dates".
I am a CR holder and according the the list provided to me by the BATFE with my licence the following by model are considered to be Curio and Relics in Section 2 page 28. (their nomenclature)
32 DA Top Break s/n 209302 and higher
32 Safety Hammerless Top Break ( New departure) s/n 91401 and higher
38 DA Top Break Perfected (all)
38 DA Top Break s/n 383023 and higher
38 Safety Hammerless Tp Break (New departure) s/n 19901 and higher
Therfore based on the official BATFE publication any serial numbers made prior to their cut number should be considered antiques and as such are unregulated. Please correct me if my logic is faulty.
BN
Last edited:
OP
DWalt
Member
Pre-1899 SNs
That logic seems to be correct to me. Also, about any non-NFA weapon older than 50 years is also a C&R, but not necessarily an antique.
Maybe someone can answer a question for me (I am not a C&R licensee). Can I sell a C&R firearm directly to an out-of-state C&R licensee, or must the transaction go through a FFL licensee?
That logic seems to be correct to me. Also, about any non-NFA weapon older than 50 years is also a C&R, but not necessarily an antique.
Maybe someone can answer a question for me (I am not a C&R licensee). Can I sell a C&R firearm directly to an out-of-state C&R licensee, or must the transaction go through a FFL licensee?
Buffalo Nichols
US Veteran
That may depend on your state of residence. Living in Texas I can receive directly from you on my C&R however, I beleive some state require all sales to go through a FFL regardless of age or status. I don't know that personally it is just something I thinj I read in someones post and I believe the states in question are Massachusets and new Jersey. There may be others or I may have misinterpreted the thread. Someone else please way in on this.
"The BATF lists the highest serial number for a .32 Safety hammerless as being 91,400 for qualification as an antique."
Can anyone provide a link to a BATF resource that contains language that asserts or implies a 91,400 serial number cutoff? I just bought #64,589 and I'd like to print the info out to show in case someone with a badge ever comes knocking. Thank you.
Can anyone provide a link to a BATF resource that contains language that asserts or implies a 91,400 serial number cutoff? I just bought #64,589 and I'd like to print the info out to show in case someone with a badge ever comes knocking. Thank you.
deadin
US Veteran
Here you go:ATF Online - Publications - Firearms - Curios or Relics List
Download the C&R List (6MB PDF)
S&W starts in Section II, page 27
Download the C&R List (6MB PDF)
S&W starts in Section II, page 27
Thank you, Deadin; that's a great resource. Here's a direct link:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-11/atf-p-5300-11.pdf
I found the S&W .32 safety hammerless near the top of p.28, where it says:
"Smith & Wesson, .32 Safety Hammerless Top Break (New Departure), cal. .32 S&W, S/Ns 91401 and
higher."
By inference, 91400 and below must be the antiques. Thanks very much.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-11/atf-p-5300-11.pdf
I found the S&W .32 safety hammerless near the top of p.28, where it says:
"Smith & Wesson, .32 Safety Hammerless Top Break (New Departure), cal. .32 S&W, S/Ns 91401 and
higher."
By inference, 91400 and below must be the antiques. Thanks very much.
