Comparing the "Orbea Hermanos" Break-Top to the S&W

Oyeboteb · Sep 18, 2011

I recently acquired an "Orbea Hermanos" Revolver, chambered in the .44 WCF Cartridge.

I recognise that there is considerable resemblence to some S & W 'DA' Model, but, I do not know my large Frame S&W Top Breaks well enough to say which Model was the primary inspiration...and or what details may differ between the two.

I would love to know more about the "OH" Big-Frame Top-Breaks, and, what Market their .44 WCF versions were intended for, and, the time frame in which they were made, in comparison to the very similar offerings which S & W had at that time, what either of them cost new, and anything else, if anyone can shed any light on these questions.

Rib Stamping is in English, and says "For .44 Winchester Cartridges"

Thanks!

rhmc24 · Sep 18, 2011

Some Info on S&W vs Knock-offs

About the only characteristics most European knock-offs have that resemble S&Ws is that they revolve and have top break loading. There are a mess of them and none I have seen have the S&W internal mechanism. Most have simpler/cheaper cylinder alignment systems in which the hand pushes the cylinder to turn and the top projection of the trigger keeps it from going too far past battery position. Basically the same system as early H&Rs and others, prone to early wear toward loose alignment.

Your piece, from the picture looks like it has a positive lockup in that the lock slots are rectangular. I think Orbea Hermanos (Orbea Bros.) have a reputation a bit higher than most of the other knock-off makers.

All that said, S&W's early DA (1880s), its weird design was successful because of S&Ws very high quality in materials and precision manufacture. It has a double lockup system for cylinder rotation, one for battery and another for carry. Even its trigger-to-hammer full cock has a rocker sear in which pull of the trigger upward pulls the sear engagement down to fire.

As for what market the .44WCF, most likely OH targeted the Americas same as S&W, interchangeability of cartridge with Winchester .44WCF rifle shooters. I have no info on prices in the 1800s but I'm reminded of a flyer I often received as a kid (1930s) from J.L.Galef's in Philadelphia included offering S&W .44 DA topbreak knock-offs at $4.50 retail. Then I bought a .45 Colt SAA, 50%, for $5. New one cost $37.50.

Here is a S&W .44WCF made from about 1881 and sold retail in US till about WW One. S&W had gone to the swing out cylinder loading system before 1910 for its .44s.

jag312 · Sep 18, 2011

Orbea Hermanos revolvers were junk guns made of inferior materials designed for the Latin American market. I would be afraid to fire one.

Oyeboteb · Sep 18, 2011

Thanks rhmc24,

The 'Double Lock-Up' of the big frame S&W design makes sense in the context of how the rest of the mechanism functioned...or, if I am understanding it anyway, the 2nd Lock-up prevented the Cylinder from turning while the Revolver is otherwise at rest.

Looking at my 'OH', which lacks that amenity, I find the Cylinder can be rotated when not at Battery...though likely, if Loaded, the Cartridge Heads would offer some drag to inhibit that.

Just in case anyone is wondering - I did not acquire this 'OH' Revolver in an expectation of it vieing with the S&W.

I have passed on quite a few Spanish renderings of various S&W designs, and, this one, being .44-40, and being "OH", made the grade for me to feel it would be fun to learn about, fun to also occasion learning about the S&W DAs it is loosely based on, and, probbaly, with Black Powder Cartridges, fun to shoot also.

For ten times as much, I could get a similar condition 1880s DA S&W, and, one of these days, I likely shall...

From all the incidental snippits I have come across through the years, the big frame 'OH' Brand Revolvers of this style in .44 Russian or .44-40 have always been said to have been ( of course, no where near as good as an S&W, but ) pretty good quality and far better Steel and fit and finish than the later K-Frame inspired Spanish renderings of the otherwise S&W K-Frame Hand Ejectors.

Other makes, other models, of that period, do not per-se characterize the whole of Spanish 'copies' or renditions of that period...some were 'junk', maybe many were junk...and, some were alright-enough.

It is what it is..!

And, to me, as an emulation of sorts, it is an interesting part of S&W History, as well.

Oyeboteb · Sep 18, 2011

jag312 said:
Orbea Hermanos revolvers were junk guns made of inferior materials designed for the Latin American market. I would be afraid to fire one.

Well...the Text on the top of the Barrel Rib, reads "FOR 44 WINCHESTER CARTRIDGES", and, on the front Grip strap in small font, it says "SPAIN".

This suggests to me, that this was intended for an Engish speaking Market, rather than for a Spanish speaking Market.

What I think is happening here, is that the reputation which surrounds the plethura of later, K-Frame-like Spanish offerings, is being inadvertently transfered to the earlier and often much higher quality Revolver renderings, such as the one I have.

Granted, it is hard to find much for personal and actual testimonials, of things going well or things gone bad, with any of these .44 or .44-40 Spanish S&W-esque Top Break Models, let alone, any details as for what the person was shooting in them.

I will be very surprised if this Revolver shows any troubles with Black Powder Loadings of the .44-40 Cartridge.

And, if it blows a Cylinder wall out or something, no big deal, it will get to hang then on-a-Nail above the Fire Place!

Lol...

rhmc24 · Sep 19, 2011

One could make an interesting collection of big S&W lookalikes for about $250 each. There must be at least a couple dozen different in 44-40 and 44 Russian out there. As you said, not really much competition against S&W, but some were pretty good, more comparable to early H&Rs. I had a Spanish one dated 1914 that was good enuf to raise my opinion of them a bit. It was in some English .45 cal. I think the Orbeas are among the better ones. At least Orbea put his family name on them, most others don't ID them.

Note the projection on the back of the trigger on both the OH and S&W. On the S&W that is what pushes up on the sear rocker. It would be interesting to know if the OH did the same or if it was just to make it look more like S&W.

Oyeboteb · Sep 19, 2011

Hi rhmc24,

Yes, the 'spike' on the rear of the Trigger does appear to push up against a small semi-circular part which rides against the upper rear of the Trigger and is otherwise up in the Frame, which might be the Sear rocker.

Last night I removed the Stocks, and, noticed that the Frame is a Casting, rather than a machined forging...or that it is a Casting, who's inside areas are not machined.

I removed the side plate also, and, could see further evidence of the Frame being a Casting.

There is a five digit Serial Number on the Butt, I had not seen previously, also.

I think I will take it some way apart, and soak it in ATF fluid and Acetone for a while, then clean and inspect more.

As for me, ( especially if this one turns out to be alright-enough Bore condition wise - very dirty Bore, so can not tell yet ) I will be satisfied with just this one example as far as Spanish Revolvers which had emulated the S&W ( or any
other design ).

Of course there were the Belgian examples of these emulations also, which had some popularity here in the US in the latter 1800s, and I think the character McCabe had one in the Rob't Altman Film "McCabe and Mrs. Miller"...but it was hard to get much of a look at, but, my guess was that it was a Belgian one of .44 Caliber.

But, I would love to have an S&W big Frame Top-Break DA in .44-40, one of these days!

rhmc24 · Sep 20, 2011

Your Orbea is closer to the S&W design than any I have seen. In shape and proportion most wannabees are ID from across the room. Orbea is very close. It also has the trigger guard attached with inlet and pins. Most copies have trigger guard on with screws.

My two collection interests are big frame DAs 1880s-WWI and pre-1911 big frame autos. I think the S&Ws are most interesting.

Thuer · Sep 20, 2011

Orbea Hermanos delivred revolvers to England in the First WW.
The revolvers where a copy of the model of 1881 Smith and Wesson.
The lock is different but the quality wasnt that bad becouse the Britisch accept the for duty on the front. Those revolvers are in .455

So the say that Orbea made just junk isnt right. Aldo you cant compaire it with the quality of Smith and Wesson.

Goony · Sep 20, 2011

jag312 said:
Orbea Hermanos revolvers were junk guns made of inferior materials designed for the Latin American market. I would be afraid to fire one.

Two things to note with regard to Orbea Hermanos products -

First, Orbea Hermanos was at one time the largest handgun manufacturer in Spain. It was a full scale industrial operation.

Second, the quality was good enough that the firm was designated by the crown to supply sidearms for standard issue by the Spanish military.

twaits · Sep 20, 2011

Oyeboten,

I think you have a very interesting revolver there. Not a bad copy actually. I wouldn't hesitate to put a few rounds of black powder .44-40s through it.

Here's what appeared to be a Belgian .44-40 marked "Frontier Bulldog" that was auctioned off at the Poulin Auction for less than $100. I wish I had bid on it because it was in exceptionally nice condition.
I like these random foriegn "Frontier" type guns. I bet there were a butt load of them on the American frontier back in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Oyeboteb · Sep 21, 2011

Hi twaits,

That Belgian 'Bull Dog' is interesting!

A plaigarization in design, and name, of the Webley ( I would guess ), made in Belgium, for the North American Market...only Webley apparently never made any of their 'Bull Dog' esque offerings in American Calibres ( I wonder why they did not? I am sure it would have greatly helped their sales if they had ).

Far as I have gathered, my impression anyway, is that the various Belgian 'Bull Dog' types, in their gamut of sizes and Calibres/Cartridges were indeed, as you mention, popular in North America in the last few decades of the 19th Century...far more so than the Webley 'originals' were.

I thing Webley originated the name Bull Dog for their short-Barrelled, large Calibre Revolvers, called 'British Bull Dog's.

I have one, buried in Storage somewhere, and I forget the 'mark' or model designation, but, it is very small, about like a Colt Detective Special or a little smaller even, and, five shot, and in .450 Adams Centerfire.

It would seem that the Spanish Gun Makers came on to the scne a little late, as far as producing Revolvers for export which would join the Belgian ones for use in North America.

And along with that, I have never seen any Spanish renditions of the Webley ( dash, Belgian ) "Bull Dogs"...but who knows? Maybe some exist!

As far as 'Collecting', this would be a fun and interesting basis for a Collection - Revolvers of foreign make, which held legitimate places in the History of North American settlement and expansion, particularly in the closing decades of the 19th Century.

Well, I need to plunk my 'Orbea Hermanos' into a big Can of Acetone and ATF fluid and let it soak a while...then ( Drum Roll, and, holding my Breath, ) run a Bronze Bore Brush through the Bore and see how bad it is...

Fingers Crossed!

rhmc24 · Sep 21, 2011

My Grandfather was a deputy sheriff in Fayette Co. TX in the 1890s. I recall him talking about a friend of his having a short barrel 'British Bull Dog'. No info whether actual British or otherwise. He and his friends didn't think much of it compared to the Colt. He carried a SAA .45.

Oyeboteb · Sep 22, 2011

rhmc24 said:
My Grandfather was a deputy sheriff in Fayette Co. TX in the 1890s. I recall him talking about a friend of his having a short barrel 'British Bull Dog'. No info whether actual British or otherwise. He and his friends didn't think much of it compared to the Colt. He carried a SAA .45.

Makes sense...

I actually CCW'd with mine a few times a few decades ago...but, it has the same fault as does my newly acquired "OH" Revolver, even though their overal designs of course are very differwent - neither have a positive Cylinder Stop or Indexing Bolt to prevenr the Cylinder rotating when being carried...

Otherwise, the little Webly "British Bull Dog" which I have, seems a well made, sturdy, practical and reliable Arm...but lilely not AS durable as a Colt SAA.

The old .450 Adams Cartridge ( which I have heard or read was also the Chambering for some early Colt SAA Revolvers of the London way of faith ) is probably about on parr with a heavier .38 Special Loading for whallop. So it is not too bad really, for such a little Revolver, or for up close occasions, anyway.

But, having learned things since decades ago, I would absolutely favor an early Colt Detective Special for CCW, over the Webley 'British Bull Dog'...and, never look back...Lol...

opoefc · Sep 23, 2011

The Orbea Brothers factory was once visited by Doug. Wesson and they showed him a copy of the S&W Triple Lock that Doug said was every bit as good "if not better" than a S&W made Triple Lock. I believe the "better" part was referring to the simpler design of the action as being effective ,but not needing as many parts and easier to manufacture. Ed.

Oyeboteb · Sep 23, 2011

Hi opoefc,

How interesting!

I had no idea that 'Orbea Hermanos' ever made a rendering of the S&W Triple Lock.

I do not believe Doug Wesson would have found the DA Model I have to be 'better' than the S&W Revolver it emulates though...( Lol...)

It's more like if 'H&R' or some peer of the day had elected to offer a .44-40, long Barreled Top Break.

But now that I am musing along those lines, I do wish that Ivor Johnson had made a Big Bore or medley of various Big Bore ( .44 Special, .44-40, 45 ACP, .45 Colt ) 'Top Break' Revolvers with the improvements one sees in their 3rd Model ( to them, 'Large Frame' .38 S&W Revolvers ) of ohhh, what was it, 1912 or so, and on?

Rated for 'Smokeless', very good Steels, etc...but I bet the Trigger in the DA Mode of a .44-40 "IJ" would have been a Bear! Lol...

opoefc · Sep 24, 2011

Iver Johnson made a double action .44 Webley centerfire caliber solid frame revolver in 1883-4 called the "American Bulldog" in various barrel lengths up to 6 in. These guns were an excellent buy for the money, as they were very sturdy and seldom got out of order. Ed.

deadin · Sep 24, 2011

I had a chance at one of the better made Spanish copies awhile back (before I was "into" S&W's) that was in .455 and marked R.A.V.C. (Royal Army Veterinary Corps).
I think it was an OH, but I can't remember. I know the Brits were ordering from where ever they could get service caliber sidearms during WW1.

Oyeboteb · Sep 24, 2011

twaits said:
Oyeboten,
Here's what appeared to be a Belgian .44-40 marked "Frontier Bulldog" that was auctioned off at the Poulin Auction for less than $100. I wish I had bid on it because it was in exceptionally nice condition.
I like these random foriegn "Frontier" type guns. I bet there were a butt load of them on the American frontier back in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

I think I saw that exact same Belgian 'Frontier Bulldog' at the Antique Arms Show today...seller was even saying something to his pal about the 'Poulin' Auction while chin-nodding to some of his offerings...

Funny old World, huh...
Price now? - $525.00 if memory serve...

Oyeboteb · Sep 24, 2011

opoefc said:
Iver Johnson made a double action .44 Webley centerfire caliber solid frame revolver in 1883-4 called the "American Bulldog" in various barrel lengths up to 6 in. These guns were an excellent buy for the money, as they were very sturdy and seldom got out of order. Ed.

Thanks for that mention opoefc!

How interesting...I did not know that.

I will try and find one to see what they look like.

Comparing the "Orbea Hermanos" Break-Top to the S&W

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