????? Target 38 DA ??????

needsmostuff · Oct 13, 2011

A little out of my depth here and looking for answers/opinions.
This little guy is new to me and comes with no story
Seems to be a 38 double action 4th model, ser# 4217xx.

Normal in every way except hanging off the back latch is all this stuff.

So what am I looking at? Seems to be factory target parts but of course missing the leaf.Looking underneath the latch reveals a TINY screw which elevates the leaf section which is pulled up in one picture. But why is there still a small fixed rear sight that seems to be part of the same assembly? What little I was able to find out about the targets seems to indicate a square cut ,top bead front sight which is not present. The sight that is there is bright , either silver or nickel and looks out of place possibly indicating it has been replaced. I have seen a few pictures of the large frame targets and the parts seem to be of the same design. Pictures of small frame targets are few and not closeup of the sights.
Help me if you can.

deadin · Oct 13, 2011

Definitely a target rear (less leaf) but not a target front.
Does the number on the bottom of the "T" latch match the frame number? (Really small numbers just behind the elevation adjusting screw.)

needsmostuff · Oct 13, 2011

Holy Moley I never would have found those numbers and yes they do match . Three numbers on each side of the latch.

cgt4570 · Oct 13, 2011

I sure could use a couple sight leafs for those too. I have a .22 single shot with a homemade leaf and a spare new rear sight/latch with no leaf.

Masterpiece · Oct 13, 2011

needsmostuff,

Looks like you've stumbled across a Pretty Rare/Scarce Variation of one of these 4th Model 38 Top-Breaks!! It definitely looks to be Original to me & in decent overall condition judging by the photos!! This Target Variation is also seen on the 3rd Models as well from time to time!! You all are correct that the Front Sight Blade has been changed,but truthfully the Revolver will sight just fine in it's present condition using the Standard Sight that is still incorporated into the Rear Target Sight!! All of the Rear Target Sights on these,as well as those found on the Model #3 Large Frame Top-Breaks,still retain the Original Sight just foward of the Adjustable Rear Sight on the Barrel Latch!!

I think if you contact Dave Chicoine at the Old West Gunsmith he may be able to help you out with Both the Front & Rear Sight Blades!! This Rear Sight Blade was also used on most all of the Early Single Shot Targets as well!! Dave also wrote an article some years ago in the S&W Journals giving a Detailed Drawing of the Sight Blade for those who would care to tackle the job themselves!! The Article was in Volume 13 (Spring 1981) Issue & was called "Hard to Find Parts"!! This particular article was also reprinted & included in "Book #2" of the 25th Anniversary S&W Journals for those of you that don't have access to the Original Journal!! Hope this information helps you put it back to its original configuration!! These are also worth a fair amount as well to the right collector!! Especially in the condition your's looks to be in!! If it were me,I'd definitely get Roy to Letter this one for sure!! If you do decide to do this,make sure you send him photos of all the Serial Numbered Parts you have supplied us with just so he knows that it's right all the way through!! By any chance have you removed the Grips yet to see if the Serial Number is there also?? It will be scratched into the back of the Right Side Grip!! On these Hard Rubber Grips the Serial Numbers show up fairly well,so if there is one present it should show up without much looking!! Nice Revolver if I hadn't mentioned it before!!!

needsmostuff · Oct 13, 2011

Masterpiece, that information is the "good stuff" especially the where to find parts part. Looked in the grips and sho-nuff found the ser# so looking better all the time. Thanks again for the help.
I also strikes me as a little odd that a 3 1/2 inch barrel would get the target treatment. I don't suppose ,with the limited infomation available, there is any breakdown of long barrel and short.
I would sure love to see any other examples of the breed .

deadin · Oct 13, 2011

The numbers you pictured are on the barrel extension (topstrap). I was asking about any numbers on the latch itself.

Masterpiece · Oct 13, 2011

needsmostuff,

Smith & Wesson would build just about anything you would ask for in those days!! These 38 Dbl. Actions were available in several Standard Barrel Lengths 3 1/4"~4"~5" & 6"!! If in fact your Barrel does measure 3 1/2" from the Front of the Cylinder to the End of the Barrel it's most likely a Special-Ordered Barrel Length as well as being a Target Variation!! I think you better send for a Factory Research Letter to see what Roy has to say about it!! If it "Letters" it will definitely be worth the $50 Cost of the Letter!!

PS:
I sent you a PM too!!

H Richard · Oct 14, 2011

Just be sure to not re-tighten the grip screw too tight, these old hard rubber grips do crack. Snug is enough. Great gun! Is the first adjustable sight top break I've seen other than a Single shot.

needsmostuff · Oct 14, 2011

deadin said:
The numbers you pictured are on the barrel extension (topstrap). I was asking about any numbers on the latch itself.

That's a negitive. Those numbers shown are the only ones and in reality the parts may be too small to number.The numbers that are there had to be split into 2 sections and the numbers on the cylinder are almost too small to read.

Also
Yup, 3 1/2"

Yup, put the grips on gently ,then loosend again after your warning .

deadin · Oct 14, 2011

The "split" number on the barrel extension is normal.
Here is a picture of the location of the number I am asking about: (this one is from a Single Shot 2nd Model)

Masterpiece · Oct 14, 2011

Hi Al,

Even with the absence of the Serial Numbers being stamped on the small parts of the Rear Sight,I still wouldn't rule this out as being an Original Target Variation!! I have seen many New Model #3's,both Single & Double Action's,that these parts weren't Serial Numbered & still Letter as being "Correct"!! You're also right,it's definitely a 3 1/2"!! Would it be possible for you to post a Photo of the Top Rib of the Barrel to see whether or not this may be a Cut-Down 4" or if it looks to be the Original 3 1/2" Barrel?? The Lettering & Patent Dates should be Centered on the Barrel Rib if it's correct!!

deadin · Oct 14, 2011

I still wouldn't rule this out as being an Original Target Variation

Agreed! The letter will be the deciding factor.
I did notice that the serial range puts the gun as post 1898, possibly around 1905 or so. The target rear is of the earlier design where the leaf is held in place by a clamping plate with the screws through from the rear. My SS 2nd, from about the same period, possibly nearer to 1909, has a "improved" blade mounting/adjusting system where the blade is mortised into the sight with setscrews holding it in place from either side. (Loosen one, tighten the other for windage adjustment.) I don't know when the change over happened, but probably around that time.

needsmostuff · Oct 14, 2011

Here ya go.

And this . No numbers where you have them. Would numbers there be a full or partial Ser#?

deadin · Oct 14, 2011

Would numbers there be a full or partial Ser#?

Don't know..... Mine is only a 4 digit serial to begin with, so it's a full one. As said before, there's not much room and other target sights have been observed without numbers, so the letter will be important.
I just thought if there was a number on the sight it could quickly settle the question of original or not..

(Don't be discouraged, I had a K22 1st Model with pre-war Magnas that were un-serialed but it lettered as having shipped with them.....)

Masterpiece · Oct 14, 2011

deadin said:
(Don't be discouraged, I had a K22 1st Model with pre-war Magnas that were un-serialed but it lettered as having shipped with them.....)

Dean,

You are correct!! I've run across quite a few Pre-War K-22's over the years that shipped with Magna's!! Both Late shipped K-22 Outdoorsman's as well as Second Model K-22 Masterpiece's!! If the Magna's were indeed Original to the Revolver most have Lettered being shipped that way regardless of being Serial Numbered or not!! Same thing applies to the Service Stocks!! Roy "Usually" states which Stocks the Revolver shipped with in the Letter!! Although I have seen him Letter them as being shipped with just "Checkered Walnut Stocks" & giving no information either way to what style they were!! I guess it depends what mood he's in or the notations in the Records stating what they were!! Only way to know for sure is a Research Letter as you've stated!!

Masterpiece · Oct 14, 2011

needsmostuff said:
Here ya go.

Hi Al,

The Barrel certainly looks to be an Original 3 1/2" to me!! The Lettering & Patent Dates are centered perfectly!! I think you should start saving your pennies for a Factory Letter!! If,in fact,this Letters as a Target Variation with this Barrel Length the $50 cost will be moot point!!

mmaher94087 · Oct 14, 2011

I'll wager that the front sight is correct. Although it is not a 'target' sight, I believe it is original to the revolver and is not a replacement. Letter it and tell us the details, please. Mike #283

Masterpiece · Oct 14, 2011

Where've You Been??

mmaher94087 said:
Letter it and tell us the details, please.

My sentiments exactly!!

Mike,do you think the Barrel Length was Special Ordered seeings it's a 3 1/2" rather than a 3 1/4"?? I figured you'd have put your Two Cents in on this one before now!! After all,you know you're still the "Resident Expert"!!!! Ha!Ha!

mmaher94087 · Oct 15, 2011

A letter might verify the barrel length. I suspect that the revolver was a special order but as I posted in another thread, there were variances in production barrel lengths (as much as a quarter inch) that were not always noted in the records. My 2 1/4" letters as 2". Mike #283

????? Target 38 DA ??????

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