Serial Number range for the 1917 Commercial?

Oyeboteb · Oct 8, 2012

Did these take off where the m1917 left off?

Or, did they begin with their own Serialing from "1"?

When did Commercial 1917 production begin?

When didproduction and serialing, of the Army Model 1917 end?

How high did the 1917 Commercail Serial Numbers get, and when in time, did it end? before the model transitioned or changed into something else with a different Serialing?

Now that I have "1917"s on-the-Brain, I am very interesting in learning more about them!

Wiregrassguy · Oct 8, 2012

I'm sure someone in the Historical Foundation has better information, but according to the SCSW, production began in Sept. 1917 at SN 1 and ended in 1946 at SN 209791. Versions were resurrected post war, but I don't think it is relevant to your question. My presumption is that commercial versions were created after the initial army contract for 163,600 was met in 1919, probably due to public interest in acquiring one. Supica says the Army SN range is from 1 to 169959. We would need to identify commercial versions below that last SN to indicate they were made in parallel to the military guns.

DCWilson · Oct 8, 2012

In round numbers, about 211,000 1917s were manufactured. I exclude the .45 Military Model of 1950 and the successor Model 22; this variety was basically the same thing as the 1917 but with the new postwar short action. Numbering of the Model of 1950 production was changed to the standard N-frame number series of S plus five digits (starting around S80000, I think).

Fewer than 1000 1917s were produced after WWII that incorporated the new hammer safety block; these would be considered transitional models. These are numbered in the original 1917 series with an S prefix S209792-S210782, except that a few are known without the S. These should all be considered Commercial 1917s.

Of all the rest, exclude the US Govt production and all revolvers shipped to Brazil under the 1937 and 1946 contracts. The late '30s Brazilians are basically numbered from 182000-207000, so those are not Commercial. The 1946 shipment made use of about 10000 stored frames that were manufactured in the early 1920s but never built. These numbers are scattered in the 16xxxx, 17xxxx and early 18xxxx range, along with a few numbered 15xxxx.

The 1917s with a S&W crest on the left side of the frame and no Brazilian star on the sideplate are the "Commercial" revolvers. Numbers on these will be mostly found in the late 16xxxx through early 18xxxx range, so their numbers are intermingled with the second contract Brazilians.

It is possible to be more detailed than this, but this is probably an adequate short answer. I condensed most of it from the 1917 section in SCSW.

I have it in mind that about 12,000 to 15,000 1917s could be considered Commercial models, including the 990 postwar transitional specimens. Most of them would have been assembled and shipped between 1920 and about 1939.

Wiregrassguy · Oct 8, 2012

Thanks, David. I went back and re-read the Brazilian info. Seems my 1917 was made in 1936 or '37 'cause it has a serial of 1818XX. It was made during the spate of Brazilians in the 18XXXX range. Going to get a letter when Roy gets back.

Oyeboteb · Oct 8, 2012

Thank you!

Hondo44 · Oct 9, 2012

DCWilson said:
The 1946 shipment made use of about 10000 stored frames that were manufactured in the early 1920s but never built. These numbers are scattered in the 16xxxx, 17xxxx and early 18xxxx range, along with a few numbered 15xxxx.

David,

Here's something that does not add up from reading the SCSW; it states that most of the Brazilian guns in the 1946 shipment were in the serial range of 297196-207989. That's less than 800 guns, not 10,000. Is that a typo? I did not see a correction in the SCSW3 list.

DCWilson · Oct 9, 2012

Jim, the section on postwar transition 1917 in SCSW is a little fuzzy and appears to mix apples and oranges. The 10,000 frames involved in the second Brazilian contract were the ones numbered below about 182,000 (the low end of the guns in the 1937 contract) that were made and stamped in the 1920s (not 1930s, as SCSW says). I believe there were also some higher numbered guns in the 207xxx to 209xxx range that were folded into the 1946 order. I don't see the exact serial numbers you cite, but I do now recognize that at least a few serial numbers higher than 200000 were shipped to Brazil in the 1946 order, and possibly as many as 2000 or a little more.

I confess to some confusion about the size of the 1946 contract. Until a couple of days ago I had it in mind that this was a 15,000 unit order, or 60% the size of the 1937 contract. But then I refreshed my memory about the 10,000 frames S&W bought back from the government and thought that I had falsely inflated the size of the second order by 5,000 units in my memory. Now I find with a little internet research some assertions that the 1946 contract amounted to 12,000 units, most of which were built on the old frames and a couple of thousand of which were higher numbered and apparently built on the flat-top frame used for the guns in the 1937 contract.

If I can figure out and clarify what is going on with the serial number sequences I will post again. This feels like one of those questions that it ought to be possible to answer fairly accurately, and I am getting the feeling that I am only about 90% of the way there.

Jack Flash · Oct 9, 2012

Here are some notes about Brazillian serial numbers I gleaned from the two Roy Jinks letters I have and the SCS&W (see pages 163-165). I hope this is helpful.

Approximate serial number range for all Brazilian contracts, 1 to 210,000

First Brazilian Contract Group (25,000 units), 1938+,

serial numbers

181983 to 207043

Second Brazilian Contract Group (12,000 units), 1946+,

two s/n subgroups

166,000 to 175150
207,196 to 209878

Note that I have a Brazillian (s/n 165xxx) which Mr. Jinks puts in the 1946 group, so the above serial number ranges are not meant to be taken as absolute.

Oyeboteb · Oct 9, 2012

So...the immediate post WWI Commercial S & W .45 ACP Revolvers had Serial Numbers which are within what was later to be the two Brazilian Contract groups? or could they also have Serial Numbers which would seem to put them within the range normally associated with the m1917 proper?

There was a Commercial on an internet Auction recently that I am sorry now, that I did not go after. It was serial Number 177-thousand something, and, images were not very good, and seller was not up on the model to give good details. It had the tiny 'Eagle' Head stamp on the Barrel underside Flat, otherwise no Gov't Stampings...and all Numbers appeared to match.

I felt unsure as to whether it was a de-farbed by private hands, and long ago re-blued ( maybe re-Blued by S & W themselves in the 'twenties ) Army Model so I passed.

Hard to know what one is looking at sometimes on internet Auctions...especially when images are perfunctory and seller provides scant details.

Now I am thinking I ought to have taken the chance.

Serial Number range for the 1917 Commercial?

Oyeboteb

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Wiregrassguy

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DCWilson

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