I've applied for my C&R license and have been checking on the shipping requirements. I have read the USPS regs a couple of times and cannot find any reference to C&R guns or license. Does anyone know whether a C&R licensee can legally mail (USPS) a C&R eligible handgun to an eligible recipient? I have been told both yes and no. Thanks.

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Randy
Provenance nerd

As I understand it the C&R does not qualify for shipment by USPS.

There is nothing specific in the Domestic Mail Manual to C&R firearms that I know of, but there is a section on firearms: DMM 601 Mailability

I would print that out and take it with you when you go to mail it, it made it a lot easier to convince the folks at the post office that it was kosher.

ETA: looks like I spoke too soon, 601.12.2d:

d. Except as described in 12.1.2a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to FFL licensed curio and relic collectors in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in 12.2a..

Handguns are verboten, rifles are OK.

Scott

12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:

a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1h.

12.1.1h Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

While I don't speak ".gov" and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, it appears to me that the only short guns a C&R can mail to another C&R are pre-1898 smoke wagons. Right or wrong?

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NRA Cert. Inst. RSO

That is my understanding.

Scott

Actually pre-1899.

I have found there are three options to this problem:
1) UPS and hope it doesn't disappear en-route.
2) Fed-Ex 2nd Day which is pricey but usually is secure.
3) Find a friendly FFL, swear fealty and kiss their ring, and maybe they will ship your guns via USPS on their license for a nominal fee.
I went with number three and it has worked out pretty good, and still less than #2.
Post script: I should add ( for my friends at NSA) that I transfer them to my FFL so they are legally his to ship.

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NRA Cert. Inst. RSO

As a C&R holder, I agree.

I had seen one time that there were some C&R FFL's working on the Federal Govt. to recognize the C&R as an FFL for mailing purposes. I am assuming that has not yet been successful.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I've seen a lot of references to C&R licenses, what is the definition of a C&R firearm and what is the advantage to having the C&R license? Sounds like a C&R licensee can't ship handguns, although maybe he can receive them.

A C&R is a Curio and Relic, a license for collectors that allows us to ship and have shipped directly to us certain firearms that have been deemed by the BATFE as either a curio or a relic.

https://batfe.prod.acquia-sites.com/...os-relics.html

If one is collecting something like K98 Mausers or Mosin-Nagants or similar, it lets you cut out the FFL transfer fee, because you yourself are an FFL (FFL 03).

Scott

For many years, the advantage of a C&R 03 license was you could buy and receive the guns that ATF had ruled were Curio and Relic. This included WWII military guns and earlier (including full auto) and certain modern guns that ATF had ruled were "curios and relics". The fa guns (Thompson, 1919, MG42, Ma Duece, etc.) still required the $200 tax stamp and paperwork, but you could take delivery without a Class3 dealer transfer. The rest were published in a book-manual printed by the ATF and frankly, it was a pain in the tookus. Recently, ATF ruled that any gun 50 years old and older qualified as a "C&R." So now any S&W made before 1964 is a C&R and can be shipped directly to your door without going thru an FFL.

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NRA Cert. Inst. RSO

The 03C&R doesn't let you ship handguns thru the USPO like an 01FFL can.
It's because of simple wording on the 1508 Form.
http://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf

That form is required when shipping a handgun and right on the top of the form it says:
"This form can only be used by manufacturers or dealers of firearms."

"Firearms" in this case is handgun. The 1508 Form is demanded by regs re: shipment of handguns.


If they would make a simple change in the language in their Mailability Regs (601.11) and allow 03FFLs by adding ' licensed curio & relic collectors,,' to the 'manufacturer or dealer' all would be well in gunville.
Not going to happen in todays climate though,,just a feeling I have.

Or maybe they don't need any more business right now. They're doin' fine.

This is only legal for long guns. If you have received a handgun via USPS on your FFL03, laws have been broken.....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I just took delivery of a Yugo M57 at my local post office in Shiner, TX. Ordered from Classic Firearms and that's their preffered method of shipping.

In this case, you would have violated a postal regulation, not a BATFE federal law.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

I think (I hope) what 1911 was saying is what I do also. When I want to ship a short gun via USPS, whether C&R or not, I transfer it to my local 01 FFl. It is now on his book and he can ship it. If I use Fed-Ex 2nd Day it runs $50 and up. USPS flat rate Priority and insurance usually between $25 and $30.

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NRA Cert. Inst. RSO

I have known of some instances in which a handgun has been mailed through USPS without saying what's in the box to the USPS clerk. That's OK so long as you do not get caught during some postal inspection.

My "outlaw" days are far behind me. I'm too old and too slow to think about that stuff anymore.

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NRA Cert. Inst. RSO

I have had my 03 C&R for many years and never used it to ship a handgun via USPS. Several months ago, I read, and re-read the "newest" USPS regulations and found them ambiguous at best. In one section it mentions C&R and sounds like it is OK as they refer to BATFE regulations as the basis for their regulations. Yet in another paragraph, they mention the 1899 clause.

So.............. I called and spoke at length with a BATFE agent who was familiar with what a C&R actually was

We looked over the regulations, both theirs and USPS. Discussed both sides, discussed both ambiguous paragraphs and came to the following conclusion.................... If you use USPS to ship or receive a C&R eligible handgun, you will NOT be breaking any federal laws and they will have no cause to charge you. BUT, if an inspector at USPS happens to become aware of the package (scan, opened, etc), you can be subject to USPS investigation and charges. What those charges (if any) would be, we had no idea, because technically, the USPS is a privately run business with .Gov oversight.

Confused yet? Good, so were we.

We both agreed that the USPS is contradictory to itself and depending on who you ask, you will get a different answer.

Finished up the conversation with........... Probably best to use an 01 FFL to transfer thru for the extra $15. Paying $15 for a transfer sure as heck beats out trying to fight whatever made up ridiculous charge a USPS investigator can come up with. Personally, I have a great local FFL and have sent and received numerous firearms using them as a go between. Makes life much simpler.

To add to the confusion
Anyone can ship a long arm to anybody in the same state (if state legal) via the PO. Anyone can ship a rifle to a FFL in any state via USPS. A 01 FFL can ship via USPS a C&R long arm or handgun that's meets the C&R requirements directly to a 03 FFL licensee.

I don't understand why people say you can ship FedEx 2nd day, the FedEx web site states -
"Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service."

Priority overnight service is about $75~80 without insurance.

"Anyone can ship a long arm to anybody in the same state (if state legal) via the PO. Anyone can ship a rifle to a FFL in any state via USPS. A 01 FFL can ship via USPS a C&R long arm or handgun that's meets the C&R requirements directly to a 03 FFL licensee."

I agree that shipping a long gun by USPS is technically legal (assuming BATFE regs compliance). However, if you tell the clerk what's in the box, I'll guarantee you 100% he will not allow it. I have a friend who occasionally ships long guns via USPS - he uses an oversized box and does not say what's in it. He told me that the only time he was asked the contents, he simply said "Machine Parts."

Regarding long guns, I have not had any problem in shipping them FedEx GROUND. I do not know about handguns, but I think that the only way FedEx will do it for an individual is via the very expensive Priority Overnight service. I seem to remember reading that was mainly because it is the only secure way for them to ship. Handguns seem to frequently go missing if sent by other FedEx shipping options.

I have had a C&R FFL for several years. I use mine for the purpose of
collecting not "engaging in the business". C&R holders are allowed to
dispose of guns from their personal collection but not deal in firearms
for business purposes. In my experience with using Priority mail flat
rate boxes local Postal clerks are only concerned with two issues;
any liquids inside? No. Any hazardous materials inside? No. Good
to go.

"I don't understand why people say you can ship FedEx 2nd day, the FedEx web site states -
"Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service."

My mistake, thank you for the correction. It has been awhile since I used Fed-Ex to ship a 1926 to Dave Chicoine for service, and I had to use overnight delivery. And yes it was expensive.

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NRA Cert. Inst. RSO

I'd be worried about two things if I were to ship a handgun via USPS having only a C&R license.

First, and most importantly - breaking the law by taking a handgun into the Post Office.

Second, if the package gets lost, is the Post Office responsible for reimbursement since you weren't allowed to ship the gun in the first place (assuming you insured the package).

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Rick
SWCA #2727 , SWHF #435

You betcha.

I told myself that I wasn't going to get involved in this old "argument" that surfaces every now and then and then is beat to death without any final resolution. (However, it looks like I failed.......)

One question...... How do those saying that it's perfectly "OK" for a FFL03 to send or receive a C&R handgun via the USPS get around the following Postal Regulations from the DMM601?

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I've got a C&R License and all I'm gonna say is that it's much cheaper to pay UPS or FexEx shipping fees, than it is to hire a lawyer

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Rick
SWCA #2727 , SWHF #435

Go back and re-read the regs. If you have done it, count your blessings that you were not caught.



So, its kind of like "don't ask, don't tell"?

Hope that works out for you in the courtroom.


Plain & simple folks. According to current USPS regulations, you can not ship or receive a post 1899 handgun by using a C&R. Period.

I would assume that is what some are promoting. The idea of "It's OK if you don't get caught" is not how I was raised.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Is there a quick and dirty way to elaborate on that statement? Is there a generalization, or is it a model-by-model list of eligible older-than-50 revolvers?

If I am understanding your question. Yes, there is a list of under 50 yr old firearms on a lengthy list. You can also petition the BATFE to include a certain firearm that you feel should be on the list due to rarity, factory custom, etc. They will say yes or no.

Other than that, ANY handgun that was physically manufactured more than 50 yrs ago is automatically on the list, whether it is included in the book and/or updates or not.

Don't let any FFL or person that thinks they know, tell you otherwise. Many 01 FFL holders don't want to get involved with a C&R in a transaction, so they say, "its not on the list, so it isn't a C&R". Pure & utter nonsense.

BATFE issues regulations for the interstate transfer of curio and relic firearms. They have said "relics" are firearms over 50 years old. Any firearm over 50 years old is eligible for a C&R licensee to acquire via interstate commerce. BATFE does not issue a list of relic firearms. (Firearms made in 1898 or prior are considered antiques and are not regulated Federally.)

A "curio" is any firearm the BATFE identifies as being unusual enough to draw collector interest even if it is not over 50 years old. Some examples are replicas of the Colt Single Action Army made by Italian firearms companies and some major manufacturers' "commemorative" models. To find out if a certain firearm is a curio, you must use the list.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

If you ask me Risking losing your guns because you want to save 20 bucks on shipping is just plain Stupid.

this Topic has been beat to death over the years. Lee (Handejector) has stated this on multiple occasions. I trust his judgment.

Shipping


Dan

I didn't ask them to send it USPS!