.38 Hand Ejector M&P 3rd Model

NewDeparture · Jan 29, 2018

I have a chance of buying a M&P 1905 HE Model, 1st issue.

SN #70xxx, round butt with 4in barrel marked ".38 S&W Spl & U.S. Service CTG". Rubber grips w/correct serial number marked on the inside.

As per SCSW, this should be 1st generation of 1905 Hand Ejectors (all previous ones being variations of the Model of 1902). It is also the first model of this frame to have five screws. 10800 units were made.

(at least to me) It seems to be an interesting model, perhaps from the fact of being the very first 1905. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks a lot for your help,

NewDeparture

DWalt · Jan 29, 2018

If it has a round butt it is a Model of 1902, as that is what S&W called it until just before WWI. 70xxx would date its shipment to about 1906.

Absalom · Jan 29, 2018

Many of the early hand ejectors show up in poor shape, so if the gun is in good condition and appears all original at a good price, it is certainly worth adding to a collection.

gmborkovic · Jan 29, 2018

What is the asking price?

NewDeparture · Jan 29, 2018

DWalt said:
If it has a round butt it is a Model of 1902, as that is what S&W called it until just before WWI. 70xxx would date its shipment to about 1906.

DWalt,

Thank you.

I´m afraid I´m a little bit confused now; as per SCSW, this variation (.38 Military & Police Model of 1905 or .38 Hand Ejector M&P, 3rd model)
was provided either with square or round butt frames.

This revolver has a 5 screw frame: would that be a Model of 1902 anyway?

Just trying to learn here, different models and variations are somewhat confusing to me sometimes.

Thanks again for your help,

New Departure.

NewDeparture · Jan 29, 2018

Absalom said:
Many of the early hand ejectors show up in poor shape, so if the gun is in good condition and appears all original at a good price, it is certainly worth adding to a collection.

Absalom,

thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately, finish condition is not quite good: it retains the original nickel finish, but it is deteriorated (frosted with some large black rust areas).

Good news is that it is mechanically sound and the bore is OK, with just traces of mild corrosion due to the use of old ammo.

Owner is asking about 300$ for it. Would that be a reasonable price?

Not pretty on the outside but has a very good bore and a crisp action; would make a decent shooter, IMO.

Plus I like the idea of having an example of the very first 1905 model (if that´s the right name for it).

Thanks

DWalt · Jan 29, 2018

Until about 1916, S&W distinguished the round butt version of the K-frame as the Model of 1902. The Square butt version (which came out in 1905) was called the Model of 1905. For some reason, many in the collector world began calling the round butt version also the Model of 1905, as the only difference between the M1902 and the M1905 is the grip shape. Afterwards, S&W called both the Military and Police Model, either round butt or square butt. It is unfortunate that even collector books call the round butt guns made from 1906 to sometimes clear to WWII as M1905s. In fact, both the Model of 1902 and the Model of 1905 ceased to exist around 1916.

Following is a comment from one of our more advanced K-frame collectors, Mike Priwer:

"It's 'safe' to call the (round butt) gun a model of 1905 in the context that you won't go to prison.
Its not correct, however. The model of 1905 has a square butt, whereas the model of
1902 has a round butt. The factory catalogs always referred to the two different butt
configurations as two differently-named models.

Collectors have elected to refer to any pre-WW2 .38 K-frame made after about 1906 as a model of 1905, regardless of butt configuration."

As you describe it, $300 would be at the top of the value range. If you are really interested, $200-$250 would make more sense for a functional M1902 shooter. If your seller took it to a pawnshop or gun store, he might get $100 for it.

NewDeparture · Jan 29, 2018

Dwalt,

thank you once again. Great information that I didn´t know about.

I agree with you: seller is asking way too much. Actually, 200$ will be my highest offer next time I see him.

Hopefully I´d be able to take some pictures, regardless of the purchase.

Absalom · Jan 29, 2018

NewDeparture:
I don’t know which edition of the SCSW you have, but on p.158/59 of the 4th edition there is an essay by the above-quoted Mike Priwer which explains the whole thing. Basically, collectors use definitions based on (at least in part) internal engineering changes to retroactively label models (and the SCSW often follows that), while S&W just went by the obvious, external appearance. To quote Mike once again:
“To the collectors, the .38 Military Model 1905 represents both round butt and square butt. To the factory, there are two models: the Model 1902 is a round butt, and the Model 1905 is a square butt.”

As for the finish, hearing the word “rust” always makes me cringe

But of course “large areas” is a matter of definition, and depending on the market where you’re living, if you find the gun interesting, bargain as far as you can get it down and then just decide whether you want it. I tend to not overthink purchase prices at these relatively moderate cost levels.

glowe · Jan 29, 2018

DWalt said:
. . . For some reason, many in the collector world began calling the round butt version also the Model of 1905, as the only difference between the M1902 and the M1905 is the grip shape . . .

Actually the butt is not the only reason why so many collector's used the 1905 designation. The new model was introduced with various changes, and one of the most important was the addition of the 5th screw. This change added a new cylinder stop design, using a plunger, spring, and screw to actuate the stop. 1899s and Model 1902s were 4 screw revolvers, without the screw ahead of the trigger guard. If it were argued that the Model 1905 name was used because of the addition of the 5th screw, it would have been appropriate to call all revolvers with new style cylinder stops Model 1905. What older collectors have hung their hats on, however, was the stock design differences.

I have never seen a document from the factory that stated whether or not the Model 1905 was offered in round butt and square butt, but all marketing and sales literature called the round butt gun a Model 1902, even if they were 5 screw revolvers.

bruce5781 · Jan 29, 2018

Old catalog page. I think was originally posted by Mike Priwar

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk

Absalom · Jan 29, 2018

glowe said:
......
I have never seen a document from the factory that stated whether or not the Model 1905 was offered in round butt and square butt, but all marketing and sales literature called the round butt gun a Model 1902, even if they were 5 screw revolvers.

As an example, this factory catalog from 1912 (reprint) declares the Models 1902 and 1905 to be identical except for the grip. I think it's the opposite page to the picture page just posted by Bruce, although from a different year as the page numbers are off.

DWalt · Jan 29, 2018

glowe said:
Actually the butt is not the only reason why so many collector's used the 1905 designation. The new model was introduced with various changes, and one of the most important was the addition of the 5th screw. This change added a new cylinder stop design, using a plunger, spring, and screw to actuate the stop. 1899s and Model 1902s were 4 screw revolvers, without the screw ahead of the trigger guard. If it were argued that the Model 1905 name was used because of the addition of the 5th screw, it would have been appropriate to call all revolvers with new style cylinder stops Model 1905. What older collectors have hung their hats on, however, was the stock design differences.

I have never seen a document from the factory that stated whether or not the Model 1905 was offered in round butt and square butt, but all marketing and sales literature called the round butt gun a Model 1902, even if they were 5 screw revolvers.

Note my statement from my previous posting:
"It is unfortunate that even collector books call the round butt guns made from 1906 to sometimes clear to WWII as M1905s. In fact, both the Model of 1902 and the Model of 1905 ceased to exist around 1916." in which I made clear I was speaking of late M1902s, not those preceeding the M1905.

bulletslap · Jan 29, 2018

bruce5781 said:
Old catalog page. I think was originally posted by Mike Priwar

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk

So, based on the factory nomiclature above, should we call the early ones Hand Extractors ?

glowe · Jan 29, 2018

I guess I was not clear in my post, but it was merely an attempt at pointing out that there were changes made to the new Model 1905 other than simply offering the gun in square butt form?? Both round butt and square butt revolvers were given several improvements from the Model 1902, perhaps the most iconic was introducing the 5 screw frame and not the shape of the butt? If the argument to justify the round and square butt as Model 1905s, was because of the introduction of the 5 screw frame, maybe we would not be arguing the point?

I have many catalogs that state Model 1902 is a round butt & Model 1905 is a square butt, but that is part of sales and marketing efforts, not necessarily management, manufacturing, or design department.

What I was asking is whether there were documents at the factory (management, design & manufacture) that stated the round butt k frames were to be called Model 1905 or is it all dreamed up by collectors?

Absalom · Jan 29, 2018

glowe said:
..... If the argument to justify the round and square butt as Model 1905s, was because of the introduction of the 5 screw frame, maybe we would not be arguing the point?
.....

At least according to Mike’s essay in the SCSW, that’s clear-cut: the Model 1905 was introduced in 1904 identical to the Model 1902, but with the square butt; the other engineering changes affecting the lockwork and adding the screw, happened the following year. But the main entry for the models differs from that. It places the first square butts under the Model 1902, but lists the Model 1905 with both round or square butt. So no help there.

glowe said:
.....
I have many catalogs that state Model 1902 is a round butt & Model 1905 is a square butt, but that is part of sales and marketing efforts, not necessarily management, manufacturing, or design department.

What I was asking is whether there were documents at the factory (management, design & manufacture) that stated the round butt k frames were to be called Model 1905 or is it all dreamed up by collectors?

I’d think that would be a question best directed to Roy and Don. Considering how long this discussion has been providing entertainment even among people with high levels of expertise, one would hope that we would have gotten to see such documentary evidence should it exist.

Given that these were all ongoing engineering changes to a model in production, I’m inclined to think nobody even thought of what to call anything before it got to sales and marketing, and they like clear distinctions. Who is going to change a model designation based on a screw that nobody notices?

DWalt · Jan 30, 2018

Just as S&W did not make any distinctions among the various "changes" in their earlier nomenclature. A 1917 M&P and a 1957 M&P were both just M&Ps to S&W, despite the numerous engineering changes made during the intervening years. The whole thing about "changes" was a creature of collectors back in the 1930s, and S&W never used "changes" until much later when the various "dashes" were used after model numbering began (10-1, 10-2, etc.)

slight_turn_line_69 · Jan 30, 2018

New Departure, if you like it you should get it. How often do you find a gun you can afford and you really like? Personally, I like the title "Hand Extractors" and I'm using that terminology from now on. Good luck and have fun!

wileybelch · Jan 30, 2018

New Departure:
I recently acquired a Hand Ejector Model 1902 round butt #273xxx blued 5"? barrel in .38 Special. Original grips missing, 5 screw. It has been reblued (I can see some very small pits on the cylinder that polishing had not removed). Had a little light surface rust. I paid $150 for it. A marginal purchase, but I wanted to explore the workings of the Hand Ejector models at low cost.
After complete disassembly and cleaning, all parts polished with 600grit paper, oiled with Break Free, reassembled and test fired with paper target handloads. Wonderful revolver (thanks to the advice from members of the S&W Forum)!!! I do have a problem getting all the original leading out of the forcing cone (work in progress). Pricing your model: I would say it depends on the condition of the nickel. I have passed up numerous nickel models because they appear badly abused. If the nickel is really bad, I expect the internal parts to be equally bad. Not being a collector, I intend to find a beat up nickel copy and restore by removing the nickel finish and start with a modern blue job. These Smiths are too much fun to shoot and most parts are readily available.
By the way, did you know that the barrel is serial numbered to the frame? The serial number is stamped on the flat above the ejector rod. There a a lot of after market replacement barrels out there but they will not have the original serial number (for the collectors). To retain external originality, you shouldn't replace the barrel. There are several pistolsmiths who can/will reline badly corroded bores so they return to their factory shooting quality.
Bon chance!

Absalom · Jan 30, 2018

slight_turn_line_69 said:
..... Personally, I like the title "Hand Extractors" and I'm using that terminology from now on. Good luck and have fun!

I wouldn’t get carried away with your new term

While the catalog uses “hand extractor” when showing a detail picture of the specific mechanism used to remove the cases, and also uses “extractor rod”, it always refers to the guns as such as Hand Ejectors, even on the same page.

.38 Hand Ejector M&P 3rd Model

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