Model 1902 M&P in 38spl HELP

Seller listing states: "Smith and Wesson Model 1902 Military and Police in 38 S&W Special. This is a civilian variation of this modei." It is in excellent condition and NOT a refinish.

My problem is with the SN:276161 which I think makes it a Model of 1905. As you can see it's a round butt though.
Side plate seam is nearly invisible, crisp logo, plate screws are perfect, No "Made in USA" roll mark on right side.
Nearly unfired condition and grips appear that way also.

Sorry for poor pic quality, it's all I have to work with for now.
Thank you!

The catalog does list round butt as a scarce version of the 1905 and the serial does place it into the 1905 group. If the grips are numbered to the gun then it was made in the late teens. I think late 1922 or early 1923 when the made in u.s.a started on right side. That's about all I can tell you. What is asking price? Fixed service sights I wouldn't want to pay more than $400 for it no matter how nice due to the large number made.

Your revolver would not have shipped until around 1917 and would be considered a 38 Hand Ejector, Military & Police, 4th Change. By around 1910, all references to year named models were gone. The catalogs simply stated Military & Police Round or Square Butt revolvers.

All revolvers of that era were sold to only the civilian market and S&W did not send K frames off to the troops in WWI, only the Model 1917 N frame 45 caliber revolvers. I do not know what the meaning of the reference to "civilian variation of this model" means?? Looks like a nice revolver.

Forgot to add that condition is everything and I think that daddio was way low on the value of a high condition 38 M&P. Supica states Excellent condition guns are worth $600 and As New are valued at $1200. With one small picture it is impossible to assess the percent original finish left and probably only 90% and higher will command the above values. Supica's SCSW4 states that Excellent blued guns are 90% original finish.

As Gary says, there was no military version at that time any more, although there was a very limited number early on with the round butt that went to the Army and Navy. S&W did refer to the K-frame as the "Military Model" in catalogs into the 19-teens, before the "Military & Police" label was adopted. The seller is likely just taking that literally.

The D-1 catalog was using the Military & Police name and my notes state that the name was introduced just before WWI, but I only have a 1914 and 1919 catalog with none in between those years. Maybe someone can post a picture of he 38 HE from the 1915 to 1918 catalog range??

I don't have another factory catalog from that time frame, but the Abercrombie & Fitch catalog from 1910 which I've posted before already uses the Military & Police moniker, together with the 1902 and 1905 designators. They wouldn't have just made it up; it's pretty strong evidence that S&W itself had started using this label by 1910.

FifthWheel said:

Seller listing states: "Smith and Wesson Model 1902 Military and Police in 38 S&W Special. This is a civilian variation of this modei." It is in excellent condition and NOT a refinish.

My problem is with the SN:276161 which I think makes it a Model of 1905. As you can see it's a round butt though.
Side plate seam is nearly invisible, crisp logo, plate screws are perfect, No "Made in USA" roll mark on right side.
Nearly unfired condition and grips appear that way also.

Sorry for poor pic quality, it's all I have to work with for now.
Thank you!

Click to expand...

From the one pic it looks pretty nice. That serial number puts it sometime between Aug & Dec 1917.

FifthWheel said:

My problem is with the SN:276161 which I think makes it a Model of 1905. As you can see it's a round butt though.

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Herein lies the problem with the whole 1902/1905 controversy.
Since the OP is concerned with what variant this gun is beyond being merely a round butt 38 Spec K frame, I am assuming he is trying to obtain a particular variation, or perhaps even assemble a collection of the different variants.
Telling him this is a 1902 is about as helpful as telling him it is a Smith & Wesson.


In the mechanical evolutionary system used by Neal & Jinks, it is a 1905-4th Change. It has a round butt in case anyone can't tell.

It is a fairly early one.
It would fill the hole nicely for a 1905-4th RB Pre WW I (US entry) type variant in a complete collection. It would NOT fill the hole for a Mod 1902 or Mod 1902-1st Change in a complete M&P collection.

We just proved the 02/05 debate can add as much or more confusion than it can add clarity for novice collectors.

Of course, it makes it easier to complete a 38 M&P collection, cause you only need two- a Round Butt and a Square Butt. To heck with all them silly variations!

handejector said:

. . . Since the OP is concerned with what variant this gun is beyond being merely a round butt 38 Spec K frame, I am assuming he is trying to obtain a particular variation, or perhaps even assemble a collection of the different variants.
Telling him this is a 1902 is about as helpful as telling him it is a Smith & Wesson. . . .

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I think I did that in post #3

glowe said:

I think I did that in post #3

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Sorta kinda.
"38 Hand Ejector, Military & Police, 4th Change" is a better try than merely "Mod 1902" that some members will insist on.


But better still is to fall back to the old Neal & Jinks system-
It is a "1905-4th Change with a Round Butt".


The way I count, a "38 Hand Ejector, Military & Police, 4th Change" is:


1- Model 1899
2- Model 1902
3- Model 1902-1st Change
4- Model 1905 < the "4th Change in the M&P Line"

So, I can't agree with "38 Hand Ejector, Military & Police, 4th Change" if you leave out "1905".


I guess you all have figured it out- I'll stick with the N&J system CAUSE it WORKS.


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Absalom said:

I don't have another factory catalog from that time frame, but the Abercrombie & Fitch catalog from 1910 which I've posted before already uses the Military & Police moniker, together with the 1902 and 1905 designators. They wouldn't have just made it up; it's pretty strong evidence that S&W itself had started using this label by 1910.

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I agree that Retailer's catalogs can be very useful, but they do have shortcomings. They can lag years behind in having current pics, current descriptions, etc.
Hell, even FACTORY catalogs have outdated pics sometimes.
That pic looks mostly correct, EXCEPT for the fact that the top of the page is labeled "Military & Police", and then goes on to list the Model 1903 .32 HE. "Military & Police" is not printed again for the Mod 1905, so they are calling the 1903 .32 HE an M&P. That is not correct. The Factory never referred to it that way as far as I know.


Is this of any interest? >>>>


A original 1900 Catalog:



shows this gun:



It contained this price list, dated 1901:






It proves the term "Military & Police" was in use in 1901:



So, we just proved the term "Military & Police" was in use by 1901, and the Mod 1899 can be called an M&P, and presumably the following 38 Spec K frames can be called M&Ps.

If you're curious about the three price columns, they are for grip options, respectively:
Rubber
Ivory
Pearl

YES, pearl was higher than ivory!

Thanks for all the knowledgeable responses gentlemen. He's at $600 before I get out the door. The finish shows just a touch of muzzle wear and grips are nearly perfect except for the one light freckle pictured.
If I add it to my modest, eclectic collection I'll post better pics.

SN 276161 likely shipped around March-April of 1917, after S&W had ceased using references to "Model of 1905" or "Model of 1902" and began advertising them only as the "Military and Police" Model, either round butt or square butt. By convention, some collectors might call this revolver a Model of 1905, 4th change, but S&W never used "changes" in its nomenclature. And you will not see the word "change" stamped on a box label. Some collectors also use "Model of 1905, 4th change" to describe all M&Ps made until WWII, which recognizes that there is very little difference between a M&P made in 1915 and one made in 1941 (and, really, to 1945 when an improved safety device was added). There were actually a few changes made to the M&P during that 1915-1945 period (sights, safety, extractor rod knob, and metallurgy) but those are generally ignored when it comes to nomenclature. You will not see any references to a Model of 1905 5th change, 6th change, etc., even though there were some changes made after 1915. Go figure.

Serious collectors of all sorts of things (including guns) have a tendency to attach their own identifiers to each perceptible variation of the same basic item which occurred over time. But those identifiers are often invented by collectors rather than by the items' makers.

Cool stuff, Lee. I was not aware that the Military & Police label appeared that early.

S&W likely kept using the "Military Model", as well as continuing the US SERVICE CTG stamping on the barrel, for some years until the adoption of the Colt M1909 in .45 made it painfully obvious that all hope was lost of S&W succeeding the .38 DA Colts as the US service revolvers.

DWalt said:

Collectors of all sorts of things (including guns) have a tendency to attach their own identifiers to each perceptible variation of the same basic item which occurred over time. But those identifiers are often invented by collectors rather than by the item's' makers.

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Well, yeah.

That's what collector's do.
If they don't differentiate between variations, there is no collecting to be done.


One Waltham pocket watch would comprise a complete collection.


A stamp album would only need a handful of stamps.


A complete current coin collection would be a penny, nickel, dime, and quarter.



Seems like a lotta fun.

I have serial 288430, which Mr. Jinks said shipped in October 1917, so I'd bet DWalt's March-April 1917 estimate is right.

I like the round butt! Looking forward to the photos after you buy it.

Mine is 275520 and essentially identical. I haven't lettered it, but 1917 is what everyone agrees on.

IF one asks the historian, he will tell you that a Model of 1905 has a square butt, and a Model of 1902 has a round butt.

There is a "problem" with the engineering change notation. At serial number 50000, which we know as the 1902 1st change, the model of 1905 was introduced. This is what causes all the nomenclature problem for the Neal & Jink (N&J) notion about engineering changes. The square-butt variation was introduced into, and intermingled with, the round-butt serial number series.

At that point, we have two otherwise identical guns - except for the butt configuration.
The round-butt variant is a 1902 1st change, according to N&J ; the square-butt variant is a model of 1905, according to the factory literature and catalogs.

Everything remains the same until serial umber 62450, when the factory changes the design of the cylinder stop, and adds the 5th frame screw. This is an engineering change, not a model change.

The question is - what is N&J to do at this point? Properly, this would be the second change to the model of 1902, and the first engineering change to the model of 1905.
Clearly, for two otherwise identical guns, this is problematic. N&J elects to call all .38 K-frames, from this point forward, a model of 1905. For their purposes, this is the introduction of the model of 1905. And, the model of 1902 no longer appears in the N&J terminology.

If one has a large-enough collection of .38 K-frames from these years, one will note that, sometimes, the guns are described as a model of 1902. Sometimes it is described as a model of 1905. On other occasions, a round butt is described as a late model of 1902. On other occasions, a square-butt is described as an early 1905.

The factory continues, in its catalogs and literature, to use the designations for another 10 to 15 years, then changes the model names to the round-butt model, and the square butt model. It also important to note that N&J itself does not come about, until the late 1960'searly 1970's. It is an ex-post nomenclature.

There appears to be no really good solution to this dilemma, so life goes on with this confusion!

Regards, Mike Priwer

Here's No. 296148 to add to an interesting thread.





Don't have a factory letter. Have always assumed this one was produced soon after Armistice. Perhaps in early 1919.

I do know the round butt K-Frames of the period handle and shoot really nicely. There is something about the checkered walnut stocks dimensions that seem to fit my hand better than post war round butt stocks.

mikepriwer said:

.....
There appears to be no really good solution to this dilemma, so life goes on with this confusion!

Click to expand...

As I have argued before, this does not really need to be confusing, not does it need to be controversial. We just need to realize that the terminology used depends on the context and imposing a uniform "correct" format is futile.

And I don't think we overburden the brain of anyone new to S&W who joins the forum, asking about great-grandpa's gun, if we explain that "this was likely called a Model 1902 when great-grandpa bought it, but for technical reasons collectors today would classify it as a Model 1905, 4th change, round butt."

"Here's No. 296148 to add to an interesting thread."

Based upon those SNs on my list, I'd guess yours shipped in mid-1919, May or June. The round-butt checkered wood grips do look spiffy.