So, I'm guessing you can shoot +p's in a 38/44

ABPOS · Sep 5, 2018

It's more for me to just learn, but from the reading I've done, it seems like the factory 38/44 load was a lot hotter than .38 +p's are now, no?

I found a few pics of them on the net that are pretty darned sweet. Maybe somebody here owns them......

Also, a lot of the pics of them show magna type stocks, but I would've thought they were made too early to have magnas on them..... I thought they'd have to have the older service type stocks, like on a victory or 1917 but checkered with the medallion.

I find the 4" and shorter N frames with a tapered barrel to be a particularly handsome gun. Well I like pretty much all of the depression Era Smith's the best. They just look the best to my eye.

murphydog · Sep 5, 2018

Member 1Aspenhill is the local HD expert, but the above postwar/gold box examples are proper with Magna stocks. Prewar guns mostly had service stocks but i’ve seen a few with original prewar Magnas also.

By report the .38-44 shot a 158 gr lead bullet at 11-1200 fps. Buffalo Bore makes a similar load today and I’d guess it generates + P pressure levels. Now get searching!

beagleye · Sep 5, 2018

Somebody call Saxon Pig.

+p still complies with SAAMI pressure limits for a cartridge, so it should be safe in all modern guns in good condition. It will accelerate wear, but unless you're a +p shooting addict, you're probably not ever going to wear out a gun from +p 38 special.

38/44s (heavy duty's and Outdoorsman's) are considered safe to much higher pressure levels. In fact it was common to bore them out for .357 magnum and shoot them with magnum loads and they are alleged to have survived that fine. I never tried that and I haven't run across any such guns but there's supposed to a few floating around. I load my 38/44s to 1100 FPS with 158 grain lead bullets. I suspect that's over SAAMI pressure limits but think they should handle that for generations of normal use.

Wiregrassguy · Sep 5, 2018

Current +P ammo is loaded to about what standard pressure cartridges pre-mid 1970's were loaded. SAAMI dropped the accelerant load substantially enough to drop bullet velocity from around 950 fps to ~750 in .38 Special.

DWalt · Sep 5, 2018

"It's more for me to just learn, but from the reading I've done, it seems like the factory 38/44 load was a lot hotter than .38 +p's are now, no?"

I have not seen any information regarding an actual measured peak chamber pressure of the old .38-44 (not .38/44) cartridge (obsolete since the early 1970s). The original given ballistics of it is in the low 1100s ft/sec MV with a 158 grain lead or metal capped bullet. Using the Quickload program, that MV would require a peak chamber pressure of around 25,000 psi using any of the appropriate slower propellants such as 2400. I think today's .38 Special +P loading is stated to have a maximum SAAMI limit of around 19,000 psi. Typical .38-44 handload recipes from earlier reloading manuals often used Hercules 2400 powder.

During the 1930s, there were no warnings given about dangers from firing the .38-44 cartridge in any .38 Special revolver other than the .38/44 S&W. The Remington 1937 ammunition catalog's only warning was that firing the .38-44 in a lighter-weight .38 Special revolver would result in increased recoil.

ABPOS · Sep 5, 2018

murphydog said:
Member 1Aspenhill is the local HD expert, but the above postwar/gold box examples are proper with Magna stocks. Prewar guns mostly had service stocks but i’ve seen a few with original prewar Magnas also.

By report the .38-44 shot a 158 gr lead bullet at 11-1200 fps. Buffalo Bore makes a similar load today and I’d guess it generates + P pressure levels. Now get searching!

If only I had the money for one. But if I were to get an N frame, I would like one like this. I'm not opposed to a .44 special either, but I'm kind of a fan of .38 special.

Check this one out....:

ABPOS · Sep 5, 2018

Wiregrassguy said:
Current +P ammo is loaded to about what standard pressure cartridges pre-mid 1970's were loaded. SAAMI dropped the accelerant load substantially enough to drop bullet velocity from around 950 fps to ~750 in .38 Special.

Really? I didn't know that was the case that saami dropped the pressures for standard .38 special.... Wow.

6string · Sep 5, 2018

From the standpoint of what SAAMI says or doesn't say about 38 Special, check this out:

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Z299-3_ANSI-SAAMI_CFPandR.pdf

Page 12 lists pressure data for 38 special (standard, match, and +P).
Page 47-48 shows cartridge dimensions for 38 special.
There is a lot of data defining pressure test procedures.

All we know for sure about 38/44 relative to SAAMI was that it predates and exceeds 38 special specs, including +P.

Best Regards,
Jim

H Richard · Sep 5, 2018

The 38/44 was often reamed out and loaded with 357 magnum's. I have never heard of any harm caused to any revolver with this loading, so I would think +P would be well below the pressure of any 357's.

les.b · Sep 5, 2018

ABPOS said:
If only I had the money for one. But if I were to get an N frame, I would like one like this. I'm not opposed to a .44 special either, but I'm kind of a fan of .38 special.

Check this one out....:

Well, that's a beauty, alright, but I think the barrel has been shortened, and the front sight repositioned.

Sort of like my Brazillian "Project" gun:

les-b-albums-some-of-my-s-and-w-n-frame-project-guns-picture18514-ready-function-test.jpeg

Best Regards, Les

beagleye · Sep 5, 2018

I love that Brazilian!

25,000psi seems like a good guess. I am sure pressure vary a lot many factors, but it's clear the 38/44 load is meant to be between .357 and standard 38 spcl. And loaded with 11-12 grains of 2400, seems to be exactly what you get. When I used to have a Chronograph, 11 grains put me right around 1,100 fps. That's right between the velocity of a +p 38spcl and .357 velocity.

So to the OPs quest- +p all day every day in a 38/44, no worries. It might shoot high depending on your grip and site picture.

G-Mac · Sep 5, 2018

beagleye said:
Somebody call Saxon Pig.

Saxon Pig is no more. He goes by "Art Doc" now.

rct269 · Sep 5, 2018

Here are the numbers from the time-----------back when. I say "the numbers", there was no discussion of pressures---muzzle velocity and energy only. I'll top that off with some quotes from a discussion on heat treating (of cylinders)---also from the time.

.38 S&W Special (circa 1930-'31): 870 fps-----266 ft. lbs.

.38/44 S&W Special (circa 1930-'31): 1175 fps-----460 ft. lbs.

357 Magnum (circa 1935): 1,515 fps-----807 ft. lbs. (from 8 3/4" barrel)

Heat treating: This from a letter from D.B. Wesson to a customer (circa 1934) discussing heat treating as applied to the K-22 Outdoorsman and the 38/44 Outdoorsman. K-22 was afforded no heat treating "----as the great thickness of the cylinder walls do not demand any further strengthening."----and "-------the steel as it comes from the mill shows a tensile strength in the neighborhood of 80,000 lbs., which does not make the additional strength gained by treating a necessity." Wesson implies the steel from the mill would be entirely satisfactory as is (in the larger calibers), but goes on to say "---------but we do very much prefer the greatly increased factor of safety that is obtained with the 130,000 lbs. elastic limit that the treating gives."

I suspect, but do not know, the heat treating afforded the Outdoorsman (and Heavy Duty) in 1934 was exactly the same as that used for the Magnums a year later.

Ralph Tremaine

model3sw · Sep 6, 2018

I cannot speak for the .38/44 Heavy Duty as I don't often shoot them, however, the pre-war .38/44 Outdoorsman is one of my favorites.

Many years back, another member and I, took our pre-war .38/44 Outdoorsman to the police range where he worked. We were afforded to use up all the old bulk target ammo there was and we gladly obliged.

2 different, 95%+ .38/44 Outdoorsmans with PD reloaded .38 specials, we had flyers all over the place. We sand-bagged the barrels .... same thing. We were baffled.

I go into my range box for an old box of factory pack .38 Special (non +P) and the accuracy improved but only somewhat.

I then dug out a box of S&W, Nyclads in .38 Special +P. With the +P factory packs ... BOTH Outdoorsmans performed excellently.

Since that day (over 25 years ago), whenever I target one of my pre-war Outdoorsmans, I always shoot with either my own, hand load +Ps, or a factory pack +P. I am NEVER disappointed with the performance, buttery sweet trigger nor the perfect craftsmanship of either pre-war .38/44 ODs.

I'm amazed that over the past 20 years the values of the .38/44 HD and 38/44 Outdoorsman have not increased in value.

One day soon, they prices will skyrocket when re-discovered what fine revolvers they are.

Grayfox · Sep 6, 2018

I have 2 .38-44 HDs and an Outdoorsman. Some years back I set out to duplicate the original .34-44 HD load. I found a lot of varying data and actually went way over with a couple of my experiments.

I finally settled on a hard cast 158gr RNFP over a healthy charge of 2400 which gave me a chronographed velocity of 1180 fps.
So yeah, there ain't a .38 Special +P factory load made that will make a good .38-44 break a sweat.

DWalt · Sep 6, 2018

It is actually possible to reload .38 Special cases to reach near-.357 Magnum performance, especially if the bullet is seated a little further out. But that's not a good idea if the intent is to use such loads in .38 Special revolvers. The extra case length of the .357 cartridge is there mainly so that .357 Magnum cartridges cannot be seated fully into .38 Special chambers.

STCM(SW) · Sep 6, 2018

My HD had adj. sights put on it and the load I make gets 1200 fps with a 160 gr KSWC.
Not a N frame 357 Magnum, but close enough for me....

DWalt · Sep 6, 2018

I have a mid-1950s HD having the lengthened .357 chambers. While I have fired some .357 Magnum factory loads in it without issues, I normally just use my handloaded .38 Special wadcutters. But it's nice to know that I can use .357 Magnum ammunition should the need arise. As mine is an old cop gun anyway, the lengthened chambers don't affect its value. I have always sort of wondered why S&W didn't make a factory .357 HD with an eye toward the LE market.

beagleye · Sep 6, 2018

DWalt said:
...I have always sort of wondered why S&W didn't make a factory .357 HD with an eye toward the LE market.

I wonder the same thing, something like the 520, would have been so cool. I know they'd be popular with collectors now, but S&W must have judged the market wasn't there at that time.

6string · Sep 6, 2018

I have a question for you guys.
How does the cylinder length of the various 38/44s compare with that of their contemporaneous 357s?
For example, a post war transitional 38/44 to a post war Magnum, or, a pre war 38/44 HD to a pre war registered Magnum?

A lot of people reloaded the 357 to fairly high power using the Lyman 358156 seated out to the lower crimp groove in a 38 Special case. The OAL matched that of the same bullet in a 357 case, but seated deeper so it was crimped in the upper crimp groove.
This is precisely the practice intended by the design of the slug.

What I'm getting at is whether such a load in a 38 Special case would chamber in a 38/44.
PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT advocating the practice, just wondering if the cylinder length of any of the 38/44s accommodates the load in question.

Thanks,
Jim

So, I'm guessing you can shoot +p's in a 38/44

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