Victory flaming ordnance bomb on butt

I'd like to start by saying this has been a very good week for folks posting about their Victory model revolvers, thanks!

I really enjoy not only finding them in the wild but also visiting with other folks with regards to their examples. This usually affords myself and others the opportunity to delve into the minutia of the OP's example. (Unfortunately that may lead to us eventually sliding off an a tangent and for that I do apologize!)

While I have been able to learn a great amount from the folks here having a vast amount on knowledge regarding all things Victory, I do tend to have lesser grade lingering questions as the larger questions eventually get answered.

Here is just such a question..............what (and when?) exactly drove the flaming ordnance bomb to be stamped on the butt? (The following are listed in chronological order by serial number.)

I have a (blank/non-U.S.NAVY marked topstrap) red-letter sideplate U.S. Navy pre-Victory that does not have the flaming ordnance bomb on the butt. (s/n 985xxx )

I have 3 "U.S. NAVY" topstrap marked examples that do not have the flaming ordnance bomb on their butts. (s/n's V22xxx, V79xxx, and V162xxx)

I have 1 "U.S. Navy" topstrap marked example that has the flaming ordnance bomb on the butt. (s/n V219xxx)

I have 1 "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D." topstrap marked example that has the flaming ordnance bomb on the butt. (s/n V274xxx)

I have one "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" topstrap marked example that does not have the flaming ordnance bomb on the butt. (s/n V348xxx)

Just curious as to why it isn't a more uniform occurrence for them to all have it, especially since I have examples of both "U.S. NAVY" and "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" topstrap marked examples both with and without the flaming ordnance bomb on the butt?

I'd like to think there is a very logical reason for both style "U.S. NAVY" and "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D." topstrap marked examples not to have and also have the flaming ordnance bomb butt stamp.......but for the likes of me I can't.

What does it generally imply if they do or do not have one? I can't seem to find very specific info with regards to the exactness of the flaming ordnance bomb butt stamp's use or non-use. At this point it seems somewhat random to me and my admittedly very narrow sample size seems to indicate they didn't use it at first, did for a bit, then stopped doing so........but I don't think that is truly the case as I seem to recall seeing other s/n examples that don't necessarily follow this line of thinking.

Here are pics of the pre-Victory and Victory U.S Navy examples......

............and pics of the two "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" marked examples.

Please keep in mind all 7 revolvers shown in the pics provided are 4" .38special Victory examples.

You mean Ordnance, not ordinance.

As explained by Pate:
DSC and Navy direct purchase got no acceptance marks.
Army contracts got the Ordnance insignia on the butt (even if for the Navy, which most were) until approximately 4/43 when the Ordnance insignia moved to the top strap.

Thank you Kevin, I corrected the ordnance spelling.

What has me confused with the ordnance insignia being moved to the top strap in 4/43 is both of my "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" have the ordnance insignia on the topstrap, but only the earlier s/n has it also on the butt.

Did they do both for the briefest of time?

And I also have a "U.S. NAVY" top strap marked example that has the ordnance bomb stamp on the butt. Would it not be considered a true Navy contract gun from the two Navy contracts due to the "U.S. NAVY" marked top strap or rather is it one of the Army supply guns due to the ordnance bomb on it's butt?

Maybe I've been thinking (rather incorrectly) that all "U.S. NAVY" top strap marked examples were part of the two U.S. Navy direct purchase contracts?

Expect consistent inconsistency when collecting S&W, especially military guns.

Some of the guns bought on Army contracts were still marked U.S. NAVY on the top strap and got the Ordnance insignia.

kwill1911 said:

Expect consistent inconsistency when collecting S&W, especially military guns.

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Yup...........that seems to be the case here.

I was hoping maybe there was something I had been missing all along and was simply blaming it on consistent inconsistency.

There were always irregularities. I’d think that especially your gun with both topstrap and butt bombs was simply due to confusion; the serial puts it in the transition period when that was most likely.

The ordnance bomb’s exact function in the acceptance process isn’t quite clear to me yet, since it continued to be stamped on the butt of non-military Victorys, both DSC and Maritime Commission, until war’s end.

Below: V121432, US Maritime Comm. shipped 1943, and V626880, DSC shipped 1945 (I tend to attract late shippers).



The same question arises about the P proof, which was also supposed to be military, first appearing on the butt of BSR pre-Victorys, but once it went to the triple pattern in late 1943, being applied to all Victorys regardless whether military or DSC/MC.

Absalom said:

There were always irregularities. I’d think that especially your gun with both topstrap and butt bombs was simply due to confusion; the serial puts it in the transition period when that was most likely.

The ordnance bomb’s exact function in the acceptance process isn’t quite clear to me yet, since it continued to be stamped on the butt of non-military Victorys, both DSC and Maritime Commission, until war’s end.

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I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has found the hit or miss use of the ordnance bomb on Victory models a bit confusing in the years I've been accumulating them.

With regards to how many "U.S. NAVY" top strap marked examples that were still in the S&W pipeline when the Victory became an Army contract..........could it have been very many at all? I wouldn't think so but who knows?

Same goes for the Army contract Victory examples getting both an ordnance bomb marking on the butt and on the top strap (Possibly due to confusion.) Once again, surely it didn't take too terribly many examples to correct the confusion.........

Maybe it was simply a fluke that I ended up with the two examples in my meager Victory accumulation.

My deactivated 4" Victory in the V617xxx s/n range has no topstrap markings at all. I've often wondered if it is truly a DSC revolver or if the top strap marking was removed prior to deactivation. I scrounged up a factory letter in the V618xxx serial number range and it states that revolver went to the U.S. Navy Norfolk, Va..(Not that that truly means anything with regards to my example.) It is the only Victory I own above s/n V348480.

I would eventually like to add a few more 4" .38spl Victory examples in the higher serial number ranges........and maybe even a functional DSC example.

Abs, I am assuming both of your examples in your pics have blank top straps?

tenntex32 said:

....
Abs, I am assuming both of your examples in your pics have blank top straps?

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Yes.

And in respect to your samples, keep in mind that serial number vicinity can mean nothing.

Navy guns shipped in batches of a few hundred, DSC guns by 5s or 10s or 20s or sometimes just a single gun in-between military orders.

So serials that look very close to each other in the realm of six-digit numbers can easily have gone to very different destinations.

Absalom said:

Yes.

And in respect to your samples, keep in mind that serial number vicinity can mean nothing.

Navy guns shipped in batches of a few hundred, DSC guns by 5s or 10s or 20s or sometimes just a single gun in-between military orders.

So serials that look very close to each other in the realm of six-digit numbers can easily have gone to very different destinations.

Click to expand...

So very true.