Did Harry Pope ever make revolver barrels?

Did Harry Pope ever make revolver barrels? Specifically, has anyone seen a S&W Target model, in any caliber, with provenance, that has a barrel marked "HM Pope"? I am aware that Mr. Pope made rifle barrels and single shot barrels for Olympic pistols. I am unaware of any barrels on a revolver that have actual provenance stating that Mr. Pope made them. Thanks.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...et-model-revolvers.html?673354=#post141432128

See post #21

info

Yes, the USRA booklets show Dr. R H Sayre and another top shooter placed or won events during competition, and I have seen them on online auctions once in a blue moon. I no longer own the booklets, so cannot give exact dates, etc. Pope barrels have left hand twist rifling.

I've got a nit-picking question from the linked thread. Post number 21 claims that S&W rifling is 6 lands & grooves, right hand twist. Was this a special rifling pattern only for the targets? Also, if that was the S&W standard, when did they change to 5 lands & grooves?

WR Moore said:

I've got a nit-picking question from the linked thread. Post number 21 claims that S&W rifling is 6 lands & grooves, right hand twist. Was this a special rifling pattern only for the targets? Also, if that was the S&W standard, when did they change to 5 lands & grooves?

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An interesting question. I googled it and found that forensic examination of recovered projectiles is such that
"Colt handguns traditionally have had six lands and grooves with a left-hand twist, while Smith & Wesson has had five lands and grooves with a right-hand twist."
Which supports what you are saying entirely.

Link: The Forensic Aspects of Ballistics - Gunshot Wounds

SFAIK, and subject to definitive information from duly informed sources of what happened waaay back when, S&W has always been 5 lands & grooves with a right hand twist. Once upon a time, there was a theory that a land opposing a groove provided superior accuracy.

WR Moore said:

I've got a nit-picking question from the linked thread. Post number 21 claims that S&W rifling is 6 lands & grooves, right hand twist. Was this a special rifling pattern only for the targets? Also, if that was the S&W standard, when did they change to 5 lands & grooves?

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I think that is a typo. If anyone would know, Mike would. I looked at my 1899 38spl and it is 5 L&G. I linked it to answer the
Pope barrel question and had not noticed that. Good eye!

Smith .22 caliber barrels are and have always been, at least since the very early days, 6R. Colt used to advertise that left hand twist torqued the cylinder into the frame when firing.

Bob

I have probably ran across a half dozen Pope barreled M&P targets, all lin 38 Special. I bid on another one that closed last night, but did not win the bid. Pope barreled M&Ps were normally shipped as a standard 38 Target and then sent to Pope to have a barrel installed. I have not seen a letter stating that the factory has ever put a Pope barrel on at the factory, but there might have been some. To further deepen the mystery, mine letters with no barrel length stated in the ledger.

Just a moment...

The major identification feature may not be what you think, that is the stamp that reads "H M Pope", but it is known that not all Pope barrels were stamped. The identifying feature is a very unusual 8 land rifling that changes pitch from breech to muzzle. The lands are very narrow and the grooves are very wide. The design is as shown below. Most Pope barrels should also have the barrel lug and front sight base soldered on instead of forged. They were likely taken off the original matching donor barrel and used on the Pope barrel.



Pope put barrels on S&W M&Ps from Model 1899s to Model 1905s. Mine is not stamped, but has the Pope rifling. The odd feature of this barrel is that it rotates in the opposite direction as factory S&W barrels. The other odd feature is that the lug and sight base appear to be forged with the barrel. This feature leads some to believe that the factory may have made some 8" barrels for Pope to rifle. There is, however, some controversy as to whether the factory even had the ability to produce longer barrels than 6 1/2", but some feel it was possible. Pope made straight barrels and barrels with frame swells.

I kept a few examples in my files. First three are my 8" Pope, #106688, and last two, #121352 and #247523 are pictures I have collected.

After following S&W ucla's link, it gave me another point to bring up. It appears, at least on S&W K frame targets, that Pope numbered his barrels. They are often found on S&Ws 400 to 700 range, indicating that Pope made that many barrels. I believe he numbered all barrels chronologically, whether it be rifle, pistol, Colt or S&W barrels. Another anomaly with my barrel is that the three digit number matches the last 3 digits of the gun's serial number, 688. Maybe timing was right to allow Pope to match his numbering system with the gun's serial number??

info

glowe said:

After following S&W ucla's link, it gave me another point to bring up. It appears, at least on S&W K frame targets, that Pope numbered his barrels. They are often found on S&Ws 400 to 700 range, indicating that Pope made that many barrels. I believe he numbered all barrels chronologically, whether it be rifle, pistol, Colt or S&W barrels. Another anomaly with my barrel is that the three digit number matches the last 3 digits of the gun's serial number, 688. Maybe timing was right to allow Pope to match his numbering system with the gun's serial number??

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Pope's later years were nearly all handgun barrels, due in part to a bluing accident to his eyes, in which one was permanently damaged, & also an accident that left an arm crippled. It took 2-3 wks to do a rifle barrel, which he would then have to take to a range to fine tune a cartridge load for it. The handguns were much less time consuming & he had a target on one wall, through all the clutter, to test each handgun for accuracy.

Here is a photo of H.M. Pope at the Manhattan range were I used to go for rifle practice on Saturdays. This was one of only two public shooting ranges in the entire city of 8 million. I shot there in the 1950's, and it doesn't exist today.

Stu

stu1ritter said:

Here is a photo of H.M. Pope at the Manhattan range were I used to go for rifle practice on Saturdays. This was one of only two public shooting ranges in the entire city of 8 million. I shot there in the 1950's, and it doesn't exist today . . .

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. . . and I assume everyone in that picture was losing a bit of their hearing with every shot!

The 29th 75th Edition of Gun Digest ran the 1899 Pope Catalog and an article on Pope's work. They are available on ebay and if interested, portions of the catalog and an interview with Pope can be saved as images by using this link: Pope Catalog 1899 Photo Gallery by halp at pbase.com

red9 said:

.......... Colt used to advertise that left hand twist torqued the cylinder into the frame when firing.

Bob

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Thereby ignoring Newton's third law: any action creates an equal and opposite reaction. Causing the bullet to spin to the left creates a load on the left hand side of the rifling land, applying force on the barrel that acts to loosen the right hand threads on the barrel.

stu1ritter said:

Here is a photo of H.M. Pope at the Manhattan range were I used to go for rifle practice on Saturdays. This was one of only two public shooting ranges in the entire city of 8 million. I shot there in the 1950's, and it doesn't exist today.

Stu

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Does the other one exist today? If it doesn't, wheee does one go to shoot if a resident of NYC?

What happened to the Manhattan Rifle & Revolver Association and what led to its demise?

I sort of answered part of my question. I guess this is where you can go to shoot in New York City.

Westside Rifle & Pistol Range - Westside Rifle & Pistol Range

WR Moore said:

Thereby ignoring Newton's third law: any action creates an equal and opposite reaction. Causing the bullet to spin to the left creates a load on the left hand side of the rifling land, applying force on the barrel that acts to loosen the right hand threads on the barrel.

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I think it is the opposite side of the groove is affected, but agree the barrel will be more likely to loosen if it has a left hand twist, therefore needing a pin to assure it stays in place. A left hand twist puts a load on the right side of the groove since the bullet wants to go straight and the right side of the groove is forcing it to go left . . . . right?????? This would mean the the barrel would want to turn right loosening it with a right hand thread??

The "sides" of the groove are the lands, which cut into the bullet and force it to rotate. Otherwise, you got it.