Questions about .455 webley to 22lr conversion revolver

Just picked this up today.
I got it for what I think was a good price, even with it’s issues.
It seems to be a British WW1 contract hand ejector that was converted from 455 webley to 22lr after it’s service.

The Good:
I love this thing, it was a ton of fun to test fire today.
It loaded, fired, and ejected perfectly for 24 rounds.
It seems unique, I’d never seen or heard of an N-Frame rimfire conversion before.
I got to spend my afternoon at my favorite gun shop and shooting out on public land.

The Bad:
It has a dovetail cut in the top of the frame for a rear sight, but doesn’t have a rear sight installed. It also has the front sight cut down.
It has significant finish wear, but I actually like the look of it. Probably lots of stories. (The lighting in some photos look like rust, but isn’t)

The Ugly:
After putting 4 cylinders through it I pulled the trigger and got a ‘click’. After I pulled back the hammer I saw that the hammer mounted firing pin had broken off where it’s pinned in place inside the hammer, or was possibly broken and snapped back into place by it’s previous owner… as I was able to snap it back into place myself.

So…
What’s the story with this pistol? I’ll get some detailed photos of the markings on it tomorrow.

How hard is it to replace the floating hammer mounted firing pins on these older revolvers? Is it something I can do myself, or should I get a pro to do it?
Ditto with the missing rear sight.

Does this thing have any collector value after all the work that’s been done on it and all it’s scars, or can I do as I please with it guilt-free?

Since the N frame wasn't sold with a frame mounted firing pin until late in the 20th century, yours is a gun smith conversion.

Please post close-up pictures of the firing pin and the frame.

The firing pin was attached to the hammer, not the frame.
Maybe “floating” was the wrong term. It was pinned in place rather than being part of the hammer itself. Like other smith revolvers I’ve seen.
Tomorrow I’ll take photos of the broken firing pin.

Brooklynite said:

The firing pin was attached to the hammer, not the frame.
Maybe “floating” was the wrong term. It was pinned in place rather than being part of the hammer itself. Like other smith revolvers I’ve seen.
Tomorrow I’ll take photos of the broken firing pin.

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I probably misread your post. It's been a long day.

A good close-up of the hammer and the firing pin would be helpful, as would a picture of the firing pin bushing that is pressed into the frame.

.22 LR is rimfire. .455 Webley is centrefire. Are you sure the “broken” firing pin isn’t simply a conversion to enable the firing of a rimfire round? The eventual posting of photographs of the firing pin may, or may not, demonstrate exactly that.

As far as any collector’s value, after market modifications ruined any of that. But a Hand Ejector Second Model converted to .22 rimfire is way up there on the coolness scale for a revolver to shoot. A few other such revolvers have been posted to this forum over the years, and so it was something several individuals wanted on a custom basis, most likely during the second half, or at least 2/3, of the 20th Century.

Now why this was so escapes me. Other than the fact that it’s really cool. Simply because it was much easier to convert a less popular round (.455 Webley) into .45 Colt, which was the more common alteration. (Please note I state a conversion to .45 Colt and NOT, Not, not .45 ACP, as a Triple Lock or Hand Ejector Second Model revolver converted to .45 ACP will fire a .45 Colt round and this is the safer alternative as, despite many of these being stamped .45 ACP, including the Triple Lock revolver I own, these revolvers CANNOT handle the increased pressures associated with .45 ACP as compared to.45 Colt).

If you don’t mind me asking, how much do you have invested in this revolver and when did you come to acquire it?

My guess as to why such a monster was converted to 22 :
For a long time in England 22 rimfire was one of the few calibers relatively easy to own for formal target shooting from a legal stand point, and back in those days the labor to convert to 22 was relatively cheap, allowing use of inexpensive ammo for target competition.
Not too long ago (1960’s) in the United States bullseye shooting was really the only form of pistol competition around. It wasn’t until the late 70’s/ early 80’s that ipsc then uspsa and all the various off shoots thereof exploded in popularity.
Back in the 60’s and earlier, a 22 rimfire was the back bone of a competitive shooters ( bullseye ) armament.
While I don’t have exact figures, consider a good competition revolver in the 1930’s like a colt officer model might cost $80 ( probably a months pay or more for most people back then) while a decent gunsmith ( probably more of them around back then than we have today) would likely convert an old war surplus gun, bought for possibly less than $20, for probably 15 or 20 dolLars, perhaps less.
So someone could have a competitive ( by the standards of the time) 22 target revolver for less than half the cost of a current production gun.
Disposable income for guns was pretty nonexistent in those days for the vast majority of the population.

Consider all the 1950’s/60’s DCM 1911’s bought for under $60, rebuilt into match 45’s at a time the only other option was a factory colt for $150.

I would like to see pictures of the hammer, firing pin, both in and out of hammer. Face of recoil shield to view hammer bushing, cylinder and extractor and both ends of the barrel
With those a pretty good idea of just how it was converted could be figured out.

I’ll take some more highlighting the actual conversion.
These were mainly just to show markings and the broken firing pin.

In the 1950-1960 era S&W M&P .38 S&W caliber revolvers were converted to .22 RF in England by "Parker-Hale Guns" and imported into this Country.

That is way cool. Very unusual for a .22 conversion on an N-frame. I have never seen one.
Looking forward to more pictures of the conversion.
By the way that second picture in the original post, revolver on a barbed wire fence, is magazine cover material.

jimmyj said:

In the 1950-1960 era S&W M&P .38 S&W caliber revolvers were converted to .22 RF in England by "Parker-Hale Guns" and imported into this Country.

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This is my Parker Hale .22 Conversion.

A fellow forum member knew that I liked odd stuff, and when he ran up on this one, he gave me a call. It is a really well done piece. The frame, barrel and cylinder numbers match. They sleeved the barrel and cylinder and changed the firing pin and bushing. Adjustable rear sight and a modified front sight. The grips are nicely checkered and they left the lanyard ring. I like it !

Tim

tt66 said:

This is my Parker Hale .22 Conversion.

A fellow forum member knew that I liked odd stuff, and when he ran up on this one, he gave me a call. It is a really well done piece. The frame, barrel and cylinder numbers match. They sleeved the barrel and cylinder and changed the firing pin and bushing. Adjustable rear sight and a modified front sight. The grips are nicely checkered and they left the lanyard ring. I like it !

Tim

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This is the type of firing pin I expected to see on the OP's revolver.

I would see if a 1911 rear sight would fit the dovetail in that .455 frame.

This job looks more crude than the Parker Hale. There’s no markings I can decipher that say who did the conversion.

Can anyone fluent in proof markings tell if it was converted in England? I’m guessing it was…

Will the firing pin be a simple job to replace? Does that look like it’s the factory firing pin or was it switched out for something more rimfire friendly?

Brooklynite said:

View attachment 591905

This job looks more crude than the Parker Hale. There’s no markings I can decipher that say who did the conversion.

Can anyone fluent in proof markings tell if it was converted in England? I’m guessing it was…

Will the firing pin be a simple job to replace? Does that look like it’s the factory firing pin or was it switched out for something more rimfire friendly?

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I think the extractor on your revolver is well made. The firing pin looks factory. It shouldn't be too hard to make one or to have one made, if you can't do the work yourself.

The proof marks are Brit Military (the crossed pennants)...
and also British commerical proof Birmingham Proof House.

The commercial proofing was done in the orig .455 caliber and is marked in the style of the 1925 (thru 1954) Proof Law.
That was likely just the proofing done when the British Military surplused the gun and then required commercial proofing before being sold on the civilian market.

I don't see any additional (re)proofing marks for the .22rf conversion. The conversion done in England would require a trip thru the Proof House once again.
Any orig proofs would be left in place, the new proofs added.

Proofing done 1955 and forward would have used the stlye of marks that show the cal, then the case length in decimal inch,,then the service pressure in English Tonnes /per square/in.

If that marking on the front left side of the frame is 'Not English Make' in a border,,that marking was used in the 1925 proof rules. But was elliminated from use when the 1955 Proof Law came to be.

Proof marking (View Proof) each chamber of the revolver (sometimes every other one) was also a 1925 Law demand.
Again elliminated in the 1955 Law and changed to a single mark on the rear face of the cylinder.

The Crown/30 marking on the butt is interesting. It is usually linked to Quebec Arsenal, Canada as an Inspection or Acceptance Mark.

The left side plate marks are standard WW1 British Military Arsenal inspection and acceptance marks.
These from Enfield Arsenal


The firing pin likely broke in the way it did from the nose of the pin hitting the frame on the way down. Not enough clearance for the firing pin nose to go thru the frame .

The change to RF needed a new FP with it's point/nose higher up from CF so it would strike the 22rf case.
That's not too much of a problem,,they make the new FP as needed.
Then they fill the old FP hole/bushing in the frame and redrill with the new proper location for the FP to strike the RF case..
But on the other side of the breech, there needs to be a fairly wide clearance cut especially up high so with the swing and arch of the falling hammer, the nose of the FP has clearance to drop all the way down. Indoing so the firing pin should not strike the frame at all AND the firing pin should not become the dead stop for the falling hammer.
The hammer shoulders on either side of FP are what should fall onto the frame surface in dry fire (don't dry fire anyway).

It takes some fitting to make it right otherwise the rather fragile firing pin takes a lot more punishment hitting the frame & cartridge each time instead of just striking the cart rim .
..and that can quickly fracture the FP.

That's just what I see from the pics.

mrcvs said:

If you don’t mind me asking, how much do you have invested in this revolver and when did you come to acquire it?

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I picked it up yesterday. It cost me $350 which seems to me like a very good price, even with a busted firing pin and nothing else to compare it to. That number will be higher by the time it has sights and can fire.

SS336 said:

By the way that second picture in the original post, revolver on a barbed wire fence, is magazine cover material.

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Thanks, I got lucky with a beautiful plinking location and the light of the setting sun.

Muley Gil said:

I would see if a 1911 rear sight would fit the dovetail in that .455 frame.

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Thats what I was going to try first, and saw numrich had some surplus ones for sale, but I'm not sure if the Brits would have used that as a standard. Guess I'll find out.

2152hq said:

The proof marks are Brit Military (the crossed pennants)...
and also British commerical proof Birmingham Proof House.

The commercial proofing was done in the orig .455 caliber and is marked in the style of the 1925 (thru 1954) Proof Law.
That was likely just the proofing done when the British Military surplused the gun and then required commercial proofing before being sold on the civilian market.

I don't see any additional (re)proofing marks for the .22rf conversion. The conversion done in England would require a trip thru the Proof House once again.
Any orig proofs would be left in place, the new proofs added.

Proofing done 1955 and forward would have used the stlye of marks that show the cal, then the case length in decimal inch,,then the service pressure in English Tonnes /per square/in.

If that marking on the front left side of the frame is 'Not English Make' in a border,,that marking was used in the 1925 proof rules. But was elliminated from use when the 1955 Proof Law came to be.

Proof marking (View Proof) each chamber of the revolver (sometimes every other one) was also a 1925 Law demand.
Again elliminated in the 1955 Law and changed to a single mark on the rear face of the cylinder.

The Crown/30 marking on the butt is interesting. It is usually linked to Quebec Arsenal, Canada as an Inspection or Acceptance Mark.

The left side plate marks are standard WW1 British Military Arsenal inspection and acceptance marks.
These from Enfield Arsenal


The firing pin likely broke in the way it did from the nose of the pin hitting the frame on the way down. Not enough clearance for the firing pin nose to go thru the frame .

The change to RF needed a new FP with it's point/nose higher up from CF so it would strike the 22rf case.
That's not too much of a problem,,they make the new FP as needed.
Then they fill the old FP hole/bushing in the frame and redrill with the new proper location for the FP to strike the RF case..
But on the other side of the breech, there needs to be a fairly wide clearance cut especially up high so with the swing and arch of the falling hammer, the nose of the FP has clearance to drop all the way down. Indoing so the firing pin should not strike the frame at all AND the firing pin should not become the dead stop for the falling hammer.
The hammer shoulders on either side of FP are what should fall onto the frame surface in dry fire (don't dry fire anyway).

It takes some fitting to make it right otherwise the rather fragile firing pin takes a lot more punishment hitting the frame & cartridge each time instead of just striking the cart rim .
..and that can quickly fracture the FP.

That's just what I see from the pics.

Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time on that info bomb. Very informative.
You're right, the marking on the lower part of the frame is "Not English Make" it's easier for the eyes to see than the camera lens.

The Canadian mark is neat, thanks for pointing that out.

Do you believe the gun was converted in the UK and somehow avoided proofing in 22lr, or that it was done someplace else?

Also, do you believe the firing pin that broke on me was the original from the conversion or a later replacement? It seems like someone wouldn't go through all the work just to put in a mis-measured part.
From what I understand you're also saying a replacement pin would need to be a newly made part or a customized factory pin?
Would this work with modifacation?
Hammer Nose | Gun Parts Corp.

It's funny that I managed to immediately brake a gun thats been kicking around for over a century.

Since it has no real collector status, would it be in poor taste if I had the barrel chopped to make a "Raiders of the Lost Ark" inspired plinker? My inner 10 year old would be thrilled.

The only thing making me second guess doing this is the fact that it has a possible WW1 pedigree.

For $350, I don’t see how you could go wrong!

Even though it has no collector’s value, I still wouldn’t cut the barrel.

Interesting. I expected the sleeved cylinder chambers and barrel. I sleeved a K frame 357 cylinder to make a model 53 length 22 cylinder. The smith installed a new possibly larger firing pin bushing to relocate where the hammer node come through. The Hammer hose (firing pin) That is broken may have been just heated and reformed or fabricated.

If it were mine I would punch out the rivet and get the rest of the nose. Then using a piece of spring steel use it as a pattern to make a new one. Finding a piece of flat spring steel about the right thickness might be tricky. But, when working it to shape don't get it above about 750f or you will draw more temper out of it. If you have trouble finding a piece of spring steel the right thickness PM me the thickness and diameter of the river hole and I will set you up with a piece the right thickness with a couple holes in it. I have lots of spring steel and can make it the the right thickness.

You could of course buy a hammer nose, heat it red and form it. But that would ruin the temper. To properly reharden and temper it you would need to get it to about 1500f then quench then temper to around 800f. Not doing so MAY explain your broken nose.

But, 2152hq's explanation is probably correct. [The firing pin likely broke in the way it did from the nose of the pin hitting the frame on the way down. Not enough clearance for the firing pin nose to go thru the frame .

But on the other side of the breech, there needs to be a fairly wide clearance cut especially up high so with the swing and arch of the falling hammer, the nose of the FP has clearance to drop all the way down. In doing so the firing pin should not strike the frame at all

AND the firing pin should not become the dead stop for the falling hammer.


The hammer shoulders on either side of FP are what should fall onto the frame surface in dry fire (don't dry fire anyway).216hq]

Once you have another new pin you should figure out if it is hitting the frame when fired with a loaded cylinder. (use fired brass and rotate it) Dry firing a rim fire is a poor practice because if the firing pin isn't striking the frame it is likely striking the lip inside the recess where the cartridge rim is supposed to be.

It takes some fitting to make it right otherwise the rather fragile firing pin takes a lot more punishment hitting the frame & cartridge each time instead of just striking the cart rim .
..and that can quickly fracture the FP.]

To me the hardest part of the conversion would be modifying the extractor.
I believe the early ones could be removed from the shaft. Then you could shave off the old star portion and silver solder on a new disk of metal and work it to fit.

While the finish on a few places isn't perfect, whoever did it wasn't named Bubba. It is unfortunate that this happened to an iconic revolver, because of British views there is a good chance it may have ended up with a far worse fate if it had not been converted.

At this point cutting the barrel sown isn't much of an issue other than the work. It is already 100 miles from stock piece. Might as well go another couple miles on down the road.

I like it. Very interesting modification.