I picked up one of these as a project gun. Serial number
487599, manufactured 1903-1904 based on serial number.
It still has some bluing left, and the grips number to the gun
and are in excellent condition. The barrel is 5 inches long.

My question concerns the thumb piece nut. It currently has
a nickel finished one with smooth sides. I want to replace it
with a blue one. I wondered if I should get one with smooth
sides, or serrated sides?

Thanks in advance.

First, serial number 487599 puts it in the mid-1920s, not c. 1904. Interestingly, you mentioned "4th change" in your title. The so-called fourth change didn't happen until 1915 (patent date for it is December 29, 1914).

Second, I think for us to be able to assist you, it would be very helpful to see pictures that show the thumbpiece as it now is.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

worth a thousand words!!!!

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When words fail, music speaks.

I suspect you will have to settle for whichever you can get, probably current production. I have several early hand ejectors in both .38 and .32-20 and don't recall any of the nuts being different from the others.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

They look pretty much the same to me.....this is my model 1899 K frame.....

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Actually it is an M&P, not a Model of 1905. S&W dropped that terminology around 1915. I would probably not be too concerned about getting the right vintage replacement so long as it was blued. I think they are all pretty much identical.

Here's a 44 Hand Ejector. As you can see all of them were brass not blued.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Interesting. I recently purchased a couple of firearms from a dealer that specializes in these guns on Gunbroker and they described it as model 1905 38 special M&P 4th change. They are both mid 1920's.

I'm no expert, but seems that is what the S&W standard catalog refers to them as well.

Now I am interested in when the 4 th change ended?

AC Man

The so-called 4th change didn't "end." At least not until after the Second World War.

But what you have to understand is that the terminology (e.g. Model of 1905 1st change, 2d change etc.) reflects an analysis of the S&W revolver evolution that was first concocted by Walter Roper, along with his co-author Roy McHenry in the 1930s. Their book wasn't even published until 1945. It was a look back, intended to identify key engineering changes for use by collectors. The terminology was picked up by collectors and made its way into nearly all collector books.

A different approach to nomenclature (favored by some of us) is to identify the guns the way they were advertised by the company at the time. The "changes" were never used by the company for any sort of public identification.

From the advent of the 1902 and 1905 models (starting in those years), S&W called the round butt model a Model of 1902, and the square butt model the Model of 1905 (square butt units were not even made before 1904). But just before WWI, they dropped that language and just called them the Military & Police model (with square or round butt).

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Model19man
I think you are misunderstanding the question. The OP isn't asking about the stock mounting screw. He is talking about the thumbpiece (cylinder release).

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Thanks guys for the responses. My .38 M&P was made between
1915-1942. I misread the serial number. My bad.

I can't post a picture of the thumb latch nut screw as I got
a new computer last year, and when I load pictures into my
computer, I can't find them anywhere. What I really wanted
is if someone on the forum who has one of these M&P's in
my serial number range to check the nut screw and see if
the sides are smooth or serrated.

Again, thanks for the replies.

The previous posting tells the tale. There were indeed early K-frame revolvers actually cataloged by S&W as Model of 1902 (which had aound butt) and Model of 1905 (which had a square butt). Around 1915, S&W simply ceased cataloging that way, and called them the Military and Police Model, either round butt or square butt. The guns did not change, but the official factory name assigned to them did. Some collectors still use the original "Model of" nomenclature to describe K-frames made until WWII, even though that is not strictly correct. Regarding the use of "changes," that is pure unofficial collector-speak often used to designate certain evolutionary mechanical changes, and was never used by S&W. So in a way, a "4th change" never officially existed insofar as S&W was concerned, so it could not end. Somewhat later, in the late 1950s, S&W adopted a model numbering nomenclature system with dashes to name models and engineering changes. For example, the M&P became the Model 10 M&P, then the Model 10-1 M&P, Model 10-2 M&P, etc.

Presuming yours has a square butt, to be historically correct it should be described as a .38 Military and Police Model (square butt) because that was printed on the shipping box label.

My 4th Change 429XXX was shipped from S&W in January 1923 per my letter.

Update: I went on Ebay to look for a S&W thumb latch nut. Most
that I saw for sale had serrated sides. However, one seller had
the thumb latch and nut which he said came off of a S&W 32-20
M&P ( Model of 1905, 4th. change), his words. The nut screw
slot was buggered, but it had smooth sides.

So, there was another seller that had NOS S&W smooth sided
thumb latch nuts, so I guess I'll get one and age it to match
the finish on my revolver.

s/n 488870 shipped 10/1924. It was a 6" barrel, blue finish.


My 1924 M&P



and my 1926 M&P

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

If this is such a big thing to you maybe you should see what you can do about getting Supica and Nahas to change the SCSW so it no longer states that 4th change guns were manufactured from 1915 to 1940. And they have always been M&Ps from introduction in 1899!!! This is a poor distinction to try and make.

My pet peeve along this line is the insistence of calling the "Winchester Model" a .32-20 M&P!

M&Ps were /are .38 Special, and the Winchester Model were .32 Winchester Center Fire. Originally they were considered as separate models by S&W, and serial numbered in a separate series! If factory documents say differently I would like to see a reference!

A generally accepted principal in reference materials is that the first published are generally the most correct, and McHenry and Roper predates both Jinks and Supica and Nahas by many years. I would like to see when the factory began referring to both caliber guns as M&Ps! I understand advertising began getting muddied up before 1920. I am talking about original names in the 1899 to 1902 period!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

FWIW, here are two correct and original 1905s, one round butt from the 20s and one square butt from the 30s with serial #s 373XXX and 512XXX respectively. Both have smooth thumb latch release nuts.

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. . . and here I thought the OP asked about a thumbpiece nut?????

They are available on gunpartscorp.com. Go to the website and work your way to S&W revolvers. Look for "Military & Police" and go to page 6. They have both smooth and serrated nuts.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

That's the info I'm looking for gents. Thanks!

Well thats odd, it is my understanding the M&P from 1920 to 1929 did not have medallions. Neither of mine do from mid 20's I would say yours was lost in the pipeline. Maybe an older model that got shipped late. Or non original grips? My serial # is 524688

AC Man,
The grips are much newer than the gun. S&W did not make Magna grips until 1935. Did away with the center diamond around 1967. Those grips are from 1968 or later.

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David Reynolds

I think the question of smooth side or serrated side could be a moot point, as you can't see the side when it's installed. I suppose it would be good to know when they started serrating the side of the nut but that probably falls into the category of minutia. I noticed my I frame 22/32 HFT from about 1915-1920 has the smooth side. I am curious as to WHY they serrated the thumbpiece nut in the first place. Seems like an unnecessary machining step, but I'm no engineer.

As an aside, all of this "change" business is collector speak. The factory is most certainly the one who made the changes, but they didn't name or number them. I've always thought the entirety of the change business done by collectors was created as an excuse to buy more guns. I, for instance, had 14 M&P Targets in my collection----never mind they all looked the same (except for the 1902's).

As another aside (and without looking at any of my letters or books), I'm thinking the "changes" made to the 32-20's have little if anything to do with the "changes" made to the .38 Special versions---at least insofar as the change numbers go. I could very easily be incorrect about that, and if so, it simply confirms the fact that I, for just one of the lunatic fringe, couldn't care less!

Ralph Tremaine

If you want some changes to fret about, try the sights!! There were 8 (EIGHT!!) different rears on Target models between 1902 and 1942, and you're not going to find one word about any of them in any of the books anywhere (except for the so-called Micrometer sight on the 22/40's). It's all well and good to be a "change" junkie, but as for me, I soon became a sight junkie! And if you want to go back to the 1896 Hand Ejector, there were NINE!!

I didn't have any hand ejectors earlier than the 1902's simply because they struck me as UGLY--------and life's too short for an ugly gun!

There are collectors, and then there are STUDENTS--and students are a step beyond mere collectors like me.

There are clearly two camps of S&W collectors with regards to naming various models. The McHenry & Roper camp uses engineering changes to name the K frames with "change numbers". Problem is that they skipped some engineering changes made on these guns. Prime example was the change that was the introduction of the square butt frame. This was a significant change in design and it was ignored by McHenry & Roper. Roper developed the engineering change names based on the internal mechanical changes made to the guns and was only useful for the Service Department. No owner or potential K frame revolver buyer in the day cared at all what the change number was or even what they owned until the collectors started using the terminology.

The other camp relies on published literature direct from S&W that identified their models clearly in factory records, catalogs, and advertising. The advancement of names for the K frames were clear and recreated below:

• 1899 to 1902 the K frame was named “Military Model 1899”
• 1902 to 1905 the K frame was named “Military Model 1902”
• 1899 to 1904 all K frames were round butt
• 1905 to ~1911 round butts were named Military Model 1902
• 1905 to ~1911 square butts were named Military Model 1905
• ~1911 was first use of “Military & Police” adding the terms Square Butt and Round Butt
• Starting ~1916 the “year” was dropped and the two models became the Military & Police “Round Butt” and “Square Butt”
• Late 1930s the company named these K frames as Military & Police Round Butt and the Military & Police Model K.

It is clear that the factory considered the K frame as being two separate models from 1905 on, and named them the Model 1902 and the Model 1905 for 5 years of production until 1911. Around 1916 the two models became Military & Police "Square Butt" and "Round Butt". For the next 20 years, those model names remained unchanged until the late 1930s when another less known name change took place.

Bottom line is that both camps terminology has their advantages and disadvantages. The first camp used McHenry & Roper model identification system driven by engineering changes. Walter Roper supervised the S&W Service Department in the early part of the Twentieth Century and basically used the names on the S&W Service Department parts bins. Identifying parts by a list of engineering changes and serial numbers were the only ways to keep the various models separate and find the right parts for the gun in hand. The downside is these model names were not known by gun owners at the time and never existed until Roper’s book in 1958. Also, the main error made was not naming the two models, square and round butt revolvers. Reason is obvious in that the same internal parts were used in both models

The company naming conventions over time was not as confusing as the engineering change approach would have been to the general public. Changes in model names were driven by their markets. An example is the Model 1899 which was named Military Model. The 1900 catalog described this revolver as being “strictly a Military arm, built for hard service”, obviously aimed at the lucrative military arms market. Later, the Military & Police name would have been an attempt to broaden the market interest to law enforcement. Of particular interest was the fact that the Model 1902 and Model 1905 were listed as two separate models. The owner or buyer would have known these model names by what they read or saw in catalogs or company literature, as well as what was printed on the box.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Actually, Smith & Wesson Hand Guns, by McHenry & Roper, was published in 1945. The second printing was two years later, in 1947.

There may have been a reprint in 1958; that I don't know. There was a Palladium Press reprint done for the Firearms Classics Library in 1997. It has nicely decorated boards, gilt foreedge and an excellent sewn binding with silk endpapers. If you can find one at a decent price, this is the edition to own.

I personally own a very nice 1st Edition (1945) with a slightly damaged original dust jacket. I also have a pristine copy of the Palladium Press reprint (1997).

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

How about this picture?

Somewhere, I have a picture of the inside of a box marked for the .32-20 Military & Police revolver.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

James, those are both nice revolvers, but I feel I should point out that both of them have the mushroom-shaped ejector rod knob. That style was retired in 1927. If the similar non-medallion stocks number to the guns, that would be another indicator of early to mid-1920s manufacture for both, as in the late 1920s S&W returned to providing medallion stocks for their revolvers.

Is it possible that the first digit of the serial number on the square-butt gun has been misread? I known from experience that when the dies of that era were impressed with a heavy hand, it is often difficult to tell a 3 from a 5. If the serial number is actually 312xxx, then it is likely to have been shipped in late 1919 or early 1920, a year in which the non-medallion service stocks were already being attached to some production models.

With a serial number beginning 373, the round-butt gun is likely to have been shipped in 1921.

It's possible to confirm a hard-to-read serial number on the grip frame by comparing it to the other locations on a revolver where the serial number is repeated: flat underside of barrel, rear face of the cylinder, underside of the extractor star. There are a couple of other places too, but they are harder to see.

If I am wrong about this hunch, which is certainly possible, please let me know here. If the serial number really does begin with a 5, I would recommend that you start an independent thread about it as a seemingly out-of-era firearm. The discussion around questions like that can be extremely informative.

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David Wilson

David
I noticed the same thing. Another tell would be the absence of Made in U.S.A. on the right side of the frame. Unfortunately, James K only showed us the left side of each revolver. I'd bet even money, neither gun has Made in U.S.A. on it.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Mine is a 1958 Stockpole Co. printing that says nothing about not being a 1st Edition. Mine has a red dust jacket. Guess I will have to pick up a 1945 first edition.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Yes that would be a good estimate, maybe even 1920? I have one in that serial number range, a 4" 38 M&P, serial number 384433 that shipped in May, 1921 without a MADE IN USA stamp.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Just to add to the information. Here’s the box to my 1915 M&P. No mention of it being 4th change.
Sorry the box looks so squashed. 😂

The endpapers on mine don't say much so I don't know which edition or printing it is......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Does anyone know about Standard Publications? I am almost certain I have several other gun and ammunition related books published by them packed away somewhere. I do not have a copy of McHenry and Roper.

The back of mine also has a $4.99 Goodwill sticker although I don't remember shopping there in the last few decades......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Ben
That appears to be a first edition, first printing. The 1947 second printing actually has the 1947 date on the title page.

Yours is, of course, missing the dust jacket, but it looks like a nice copy.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

The McHenry and Roper book was, indeed, first published by Standard Publications. The company was owned by Herman Dean who started it in 1941. Dean was a newpaper man with an intense interest in firearms and hunting. He personally owned a huge library of gun related books.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I hope you find a nice one. I paid $50 for mine a decade and a half ago.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Thanks, Jack...I just looked at my records, and mine came from Amazon three years ago for $38.91 including shipping and tax......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Stackpole was famous for reprints, though they did do some original printings.
Standard is indeed the first printing of McHenry & Roper. The copyright is 1945 on all Standard printings. The title page of mine has 1947, and I honestly can't remember if they all did, or if that is in fact a 2nd printing.
Check your title pages, please.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee
Yes, that is a First Edition, Second Printing. The first printing lacks the 1947 date on the title page.

BTW your second printing has the same dust jacket as the first printing in 1945.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Lee is correct. The 2d printing had the additional date (1947) on the title page. It still had the 1945 date on the copyright page.

I have corrected my earlier post. Sorry for being misleading. I should have checked.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Yes, all the Standards I have seen (many dozens) have the same DJ.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett