103 year old 32-20 wcf - keyholing???

cmansguns

cmansguns

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I think I have this in the right subforum but if not moderators feel free to move.

A month ago I finally got to shoot the 103 year old S&W 32-20 WCF when some ammo (HSM 115 gr Cowboy Action - Soft Lead Flat nose) was given to me for Christmas. EDIT: the full target pic is now added and the distance was 15 yards. The target was stapled onto a cardboard backer.

The other day, looking again at the target (Dirty Bird splatter) I wondered from the shape of the holes if possibly the gun was keyholing, and if so why?

The one photo is marked Inet meaning I took the image off the Internet and it is not mine, just to see what "keyholing" looks like from other sources. peoples prospective. EDIT: could not post the pic...invalid file type.

The other 4 pics are mine, the gun, the ammo, and the enlarged target "holes" along with a enlarged muzzle pic reflecting the pitting and erosion that has taken place over 100 plus years.

So....just asking........what do you folks think? Keyholing or not?
My other guns punch fairly clean true round holes in the same dirty bird targets, regardless of caliber, but I'm usually always shooting either FMJ, or semi jacketed ammo.

I do love shooting this old gun. The 5" barrel is real sweet for me on balance and the accuracy (or lack thereof) is all on me...not the gun. Ammo's big bucks, but I'm keeping the brass for eventual reloading in the future.

Just curious and looking for comments.
 

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cmansguns said:
I think I have this in the right subforum but if not moderators feel free to move.

A month ago I finally got to shoot the 103 year old S&W 32-20 WCF when some ammo (HSM 115 gr Cowboy Action - Soft Lead Flat nose) was given to me for Christmas.

The other day, looking again at the target (Dirty Bird splatter) I wondered from the shape of the holes if possibly the gun was keyholing, and if so why?

The one photo is marked Inet meaning I took the image off the Internet and it is not mine, just to see what "keyholing" looks like from other sources. peoples prospective. EDIT: could not post the pic...invalid file type.

The other 4 pics are mine, the gun, the ammo, and the enlarged target "holes" along with a enlarged muzzle pic reflecting the pitting and erosion that has taken place over 100 plus years.

So....just asking........what do you folks think? Keyholing or not?
My other guns punch fairly clean true round holes in the same dirty bird targets, regardless of caliber, but I'm usually always shooting either FMJ, or semi jacketed ammo.

I do love shooting this old gun. The 5" barrel is real sweet for me on balance and the accuracy (or lack thereof) is all on me...not the gun. Ammo's big bucks, but I'm keeping the brass for eventual reloading in the future.

Just curious and looking for comments.
Click to expand...

What distance are you shooting?

Have you shot any "normal" heavy paper stock targets? If so, what do those holes look like?
 
Try some different ammo .
Lead bullets at low velocity usually don't play well with "pitting and erosion ".
And check the barrel crown ... 100 years of cleaning may have left some wear a the muzzle and / or crown and that can send them off on a wonky course .

Were all four corners of your target taped down to a stiff backer board ...
floppy targets show oval holes also .

All it might need is different ammo it likes ...old men and revolvers tend to get crotchety in their old age !

Godd Luck ... Sweet Shooter !
Gary
 
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As Gary said, I only see staple holes in the top of the target. It may not have been tacked down but that does look like keyholing. A larger cast bullet or jacketed loads would be next to try.
 
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The oval bullet hole orientation looks to be identical for each shot. In my (limited) experience with keyholing, the orientation of the hole has been more random. I think what's happening there is just some consistent flexing of the target upon impact.
 
My experience with 32/20s is to find the diameter of the bullet that your particular gun likes. This is allowing that you don't have major pitting or crown damage. Also the heavier bullets tend to shoot better, 115gr. I have tried light bullets and found them with much to be desired in accuracy dept.
Have not had any luck with factory jackets or ammo. That goes for rifles and revolvers pre WW2. I'm shooting cast RCBS 115g sized .313" in my
1905 HE manf 1906-07. Same in old 1910 Marlin 1894 but different powder and charge.
 
OutAtTheEdge said:
The oval bullet hole orientation looks to be identical for each shot. In my (limited) experience with keyholing, the orientation of the hole has been more random. I think what's happening there is just some consistent flexing of the target upon impact.
Click to expand...
^^^^^^^^^^This. Pattern is too uniform to be keyholeing. All of the holes are elongated vertically with no tearing. What you have is slow flat nosed bullets rolling the target before they punch through.
 
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I agree with all of the suggestions being offered. As a loooong time shooter of old and even older guns (your gun's bore looks pretty good to me) in additon to the bore diamerte issue I'd be looking fore HAED lead bullets like wheel weight grade castings. Another smal thing to be looking as is the bullet luibe. Goood luck, and be patient.
 
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cmansguns said:
A month ago I finally got to shoot the 103 year old S&W 32-20 WCF when some ammo (HSM 115 gr Cowboy Action - Soft Lead Flat nose) was given to me for Christmas.
Click to expand...

I bought two boxes of the same ammo for my S&W Model 1899. It shot just fine for me. My barrel looks much better than yours but it seems like your accuracy was pretty good too. I don't think your ammo is keyholing but a bigger lead bullet might tighten up your group some.
 

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Hey Charlie B, gun question. On pic #1 of the left side of the gun.
What is the mark on the side under the thumb cyl. release? Cant make it out?
Got my glasse, see it now!
 
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That is not keyholing. Bullets flying sideways or tumbling will never be in any kind of group as far as I know. At times you will even be lucky to hit a target of that size at 15 yards. Plus, you have what appears to be enough difference between the dimensions of the lands and grooves for the soft lead to grab and start the bullet spinning properly.
 
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Those holes look more like a result of the type of target used rather than the bullet tumbling. I wonder if in a self defense situation a tumbling bullet would be more effective and one that did not.

Either way I do not see what appears to be elongated holes due to the bullet tumbling....
 
That is not key-holing. As others have pointed out if you were seeing key-holing the orientation of the holes would be random. Also the hole from the nose of the bullet would be clearly different from the base area of the hole. You would also see holes that showed the individual bullets were striking the target anywhere from slightly able to see they were not traveling point on to holes that showed that the bullets were completely sideways. The holes in your target are remarkably consistent in shape and that indicates the appearance of the holes is due to the characteristics of the paper and how it was mounted/hung.

If you are near a gun shop that sells real NRA Official match targets then buy some of them, or buy them on-line, and compare how the holes appear in them. The paper of official targets is designed to show consistent round holes. They may be a bit fuzzy and show minor tears, but they will be generally round so long as the bullet strikes them straight on. While you are at it increase your range to 25 yards or greater. If the ammunition/gun combination is key-holing it will get progressively worse as range increases.
 
A lot of very important things have to happen before any hole gets punched through paper and those you posted look like you could fold them back and see round rings of lead. IMO you shot enough to prove no key holes and the function of the gun (barrel).
With the sights on the gun and its first available ammunition, I would be pleased with your results.
I say STEEL at 25
 
I went back and looked more closely at the target ... I'm hard of seeing ... they look conspicuously identically oval ... not typical of keyholes .
Shoot another target with all four corners tacked/ taped down to a stiff backer board ... I would love to see what that shows ...
It may not be the revolver or ammo ... just the Target !
That would be an Easy Fix !
Gary
 
No keyholing...just my eyes, the Internet, and bad target mounting!

Many thanks to all for the tips, comments and advice. I went back to the Internet and looked at a bunch of true "keyhole" targets and it is obvious that not only random, but all over the big targets and even outside of target suspected.

I see what has been posted about the uniformity of my shots, and for sure I only had staples at the top. I also remember that i hit the range late in the day, and as usual, the cardboard backer had been shot completely out in the "center" so yes......my target was flapping in the wind for sure and that HSM ammo is listed at 850 fps at the muzzle of a 5" test barrel, so probably barely moving at 15 yards.

This 32-20 and my 5" Model 10 no dash (1959) were basically my first outing with soft lead flat nose (32-20) and Lead Round Nose 158 gr, in the 38 Special. The 38 special shot decent clean holes without much elongation so that is why I posted about possible keyholing with the 32-20.

Anyway.........again thanks very much for the comments and advice. Next outing with the 32-20 I'll take all above advice to heart and see what those results look like. It is a great fun gun for sure.

PS for Mike (gmborkovic): That "mark" below the cylinder latch is actually the S&W trademark logo roll stamp. Interesting is that it is the smallest logo I have encountered on all my S & W's. It measures exactly 0.421" from the top of the "A" in "TRADE to the bottom right leg of the "A" in "MARK", and exactly 0.333" across the circle from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock. I saw a post recently where Gary (glowe) I think had posted some information about different size of logos on these prewar guns but can't find it now.
 

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