In order to have or need the designation of "pre" when discussing a particular handgun, its required, I would think, that the model or specific type (however it was referred to) gun was made both prior to and following the introduction of model numbers. So guns that ceased production prior to 1957 and those whose manufacture began after 1957 would never have a "pre-model" version, correct? I am curios what's the list of guns that there are "pre-model" versions of? Obvious there's pre 27, pre 29 but Im guessing there's a bunch. Some may have long since gone away but if they spanned the just the right few years in the mid and late 50's then their out there, right?

Pre-10, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 39, to identify a few (and there are many more).

Bill

Bill is correct in that the number of models that fit both categories is quite large.

One model that comes to mind immediately that does not qualify would be the .32-20 Hand Ejector. It was last cataloged in 1940 and there is good evidence that production actually stopped sometime before that, perhaps as long as a decade earlier. Hence, there was never a production .32-20 that carried a model number. All of them are pre-WWII units.

On the other hand, the Models 48, 49 and 53 would be examples of models that did not exist before model numbers were used.

BTW, summer 1957 is when model numbers were assigned. However, model numbers don't show up on guns shipped until 1958.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Indeed there is no reason I would ever use that term because when Smith & Wesson invented model numbers they did. Prior to that the revolvers had names. There was no pre - anything.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

All models of S&W revolvers ever built had an official name and none made before 1957 or 1958 were named pre-anything. Just check period S&W catalogs to find the proper names and use them.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The box for my 3.5" pre model 27 says .357 Magnum.

I get it but it’s like putting toothpaste back in the tube. There’s no going back. There’s at least 4 other threads with the term in the title alone on the first page on this subforum. No telling how many others have references to the term in the thread. Being technically correct is one thing and educating people is fine but it reminds of the last wannamaker show. A seller had what I referred to as a model 27 in a glass case with several other guns. I asked to look at the “model 27”, his reply was, “I don’t have a model 27”, I sighed and said “can I see the pre-27”. He said “I don’t have a pre-27”. I gave him a what the look and pointed at the gun. He said “that’s the .357 magnum”. I pointed to the security six next to it and said “that’s a .357 magnum as well” he replied “not the .357 magnum”. Yeah whatever, I heard all I need from this seller, he was being difficult for no reason other than being technically correct and playing name games when he knew from my first question which gun I was interested in. Needless to say I hope he’s still trying to sell it by being unnecessarily stubborn.

Hey, it stimulates trade.
There's a Registered Magnum, a Non-Registered Magnum, a Transitional Magnum, a pre-27, a 27, a 27-1, and a 27-2. There are later ones, but the -2 as the last of the "P&R" is about the latest one with a fan base.

So, seven distinct guns, don't you want a COMPLETE collection?

We all have our preferences, our likes and dislikes, but I agree with Flundertaker that you can easily go overboard with being a stickler about using the precise terms. If I ran into a seller like he described, I would have no further contact with the jerk.

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You're shy a few manners.

Wow....

Someone who treats another like that IN PERSON has either A) a fairly significant developmental disorder, or B) has never worn the physical consequences for being rude and disrespectful.

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Craig
S&WCA 3981, S&WHF 991

Everybody knows the Falcon was the Pre-Mustang.

The answers to your 1st and 3rd questions is correct and right.

Pre model is just one example of a collector shorthand term that can be useful but more often misunderstood and mis-used. An egregious example is calling a pre war .38 M&P a pre model 10. More common examples are similar to this: calling a .32 Hand Ejector Improved I frame a pre model 30. There are three post war pre model number .32 Hand Ejector models that are not “Pre-Models”.

It’s better to avoid the term and learn the Model names and use them, and for more precise identification, use the collector names and/or screw count.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

That seller sounds like a pedantic jerk.

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I type. Therefore I am.

. . . as Kevin Costner said in the Untouchables . . .

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Gary
SWCA 2515

When "searching " for them its good to search using both identifiers- The -pre- model number, and the old Model name.
(just stating the obvious)

Well all I need is a non-registered magnum;-)

I bet you the day a Registered magnum shows up at his shop he will not list it as The 357 Magnum.

23 years of changes on The 357 Magnum

I might have had some fun questions for him asking about the gun.

About 15 years ago I went into a Gander Mountain and spied a .357 S&W in the display case. It was labeled as a Model 27, but I knew that it was not a model numbered gun (you can call it "pre" if you want).

The clerk said it was priced low because it had a problem with the trigger. (It had a trigger shoe on it.) I said "I see".

Upon inspection, it appeared unfired. No box though.

When he flipped over the tag it was $295.

That was the fastest my credit card ever got pulled out of my wallet.

The grammar police are everywhere... precision is wonderful, and education is necessary... but mandates don't work well for independent rebels and trying to fight that won't ever work... as long as 2 reasonable people understand what is being discussed, nothing else is required... so get over it...
clip, magazine, pre whatever... just grumble to yourself if you need to feel superior... this bores me to tears.. always has, always will.

It seems like the term "Pre" came into being as a crutch for folks who didn't know the proper name of what they were talking about.

That in turn created folks like me who have to look up almost all model number guns in order to understand what they are talking about.

Does all this have anything to do with "vicious circles"?

Ralph Tremaine

I actually have several factory letters that identify guns, in part as pre-29, pre-27, pre...well you get my point. Post WW II, non model marked S&W revolvers. When someone calls a magazine a clip, I know what they are talking about. Not too many people get too upset when others use abbreviations and/or acronyms. Communication is a wonderful thing.

".45 Long Colt"

It 's wrong, it's stupid, it makes some people cringe.

So what? If the term makes someone understand what you are talking about, what's the difference?

I label all my finished ammo boxes with a Dymo. Gotta conserve the tape, so the less letters, the better. Some boxes say "45 ACP" and others say "45 LC" It conserves tape because "Colt" has 2 more letters.

Right now I'm busy and don't have time to talk more. I'm cleaning my old hand ejector with the partridge sight.

The fact of the matter ("fact" being a matter of opinion) is this "Pre" business quickly followed the use of model numbers instead of names. That in turn followed the decision to try making more money by spending less money---as opposed to continuing to strive to produce the best possible product for the price--instead of producing the product at the lowest possible cost----and it was pretty easy to figure out creative people cost more than drones. Somewhere along in here they decided maybe they could have it both ways as far as product goes, and the Performance Center came into being. If you want the very best product for the price, we can still accommodate you. I don't know how that worked out--having more interest in old stuff rather than new stuff.

At any rate, what we see (and fuss about) today started a good long time ago when we drooled and slobbered over the offerings. Since then we have, to one degree or another, stopped being viewed as potential customers, and more as lunatic fringe fuss-budgets---who clearly are of no moment.

At this point it can either get better or get worse---anybody taking bets one way or the other?

Ralph Tremaine

And there were no Model of 1905 or Model of 1902 revolvers made by S&W after around 1914. Although there is no factory "Pre-" prefix, it is a useful convention to identify those revolvers made during the 1947-57 period.

I guess all collector speak is simply wrong, and I simply don’t care. Cokes, Lerks grips/stock/handles fishhook hammers pre whatever, I get it. I think most people want basic info first, they may be interested in the more advanced opinions and particulars later, just my opinion.
Now I’m going back to work on next years display “My 1905s from the mid thirty’s” along with the “Best of my Pre Model Smiths”

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kbgrips.com

1. Observe the target to mentally establish the distance between the
throwing position and the target area. In observing the target, minimize
exposure time to the enemy (no more than 3 seconds).
2. Grip the hand grenade in the throwing hand.
3. Grasp the pull ring with the index or middle finger of the nonthrowing
hand. Remove the safety pin with a pulling and twisting motion. If the
tactical situation permits, observe the safety pin’s removal.
4. Look at the target and throw the grenade using the overhand method so
that the grenade arcs, landing on or near the target

Thanks for the chuckle Jim

As a collector of the .357 Magnum (guns in the caliber as well as guns with the name), I regularly find it helpful to use the "Pre-27" designation. It is much quicker to describe a "The .357 Magnum" that when S&W assigned model numbers also became known as the "Model 27" as a 4- or 5-Screw "Pre-27" (even the name police group know what I am talking about). THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM OPPOSED TO USING THE NAME OF THE GUN - I happen to really like the names that S&W called most of their firearms. Another 357 Magnum case in point - it is helpful to describe a pre-war ".357 Magnum" as a "Registered Magnum" if it has "REG" stamped on the frame, and as a "Non-Registered Magnum" if it does not - those names were never used by the factory, but they are very helpful to those of us that collect those wonderful revolvers. Another example in the 357 Magnum world where the pre- designation adds clarity is when applied to the discussion of a Highway Patrolman, where "Pre-28" nomenclature is used to describe a Highway Patrolman that was produced prior to the factory designating model numbers. And you cannot just use the number of screws, as there are 4-screw HPs with Model numbers and 4-screw HPs without Model numbers, and at least one 4-screw Model 28-1.

Words matter and are helpful in expressing our intent. When properly applied, I find the "pre" designation for S&Ws of the 1950s (and late 1940s in some cases) to be very helpful - even though I also know, love, and use the names that S&W assigned to these wonderful firearms.

There you have it - my $0.01.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

I can certainly understand—and respect—the pet peeves of others; I have more than my own fair share of them. I also tend to be pedantic by nature, much to the annoyance of my associates.

Every hobby has its own set of terminology that is used to enable precise communication. But some of us (and I count myself among that number on occasion) can get a bit too wound around the axle. The vendor described above is an excellent example of this. These terms can also be used as a means of “gatekeeping” to keep the uninitiated at arm’s length.

For the most part if I know what the other party is trying to say I try not to get too excited about the words they used. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest if someone calls a detachable magazine a “clip,” for example. But I try to be considerate of the sensibilities of others, so I typically use quotation marks whenever I use “pre-model” nomenclature.

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Mark Lathem

At the age of 76 this thread has opened my eyes to a new word to add to my vocabulary. In the future I will avoid any pedantry.

If you know what a person means when they refer to a firearm by whatever name they choose to use, why the fuss? If we are writing the definitive tome for the collector elite, by all means use the proper terminology. If we are replying to a new member to our accumulator ranks, at least be civil while explaining the correct terminology.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

I appreciate the nuance of the naming and numbering, but might offer some perspective?

I'm no spring chicken anymore in my 50s, but I grew up after the model number system had been implemented. I only caught bits and pieces of the model names later. Proud to say I'm pretty well versed now, but it took a few years to get the model numbers down soild - names are an ongoing challenge.

This discussion reminds me of a topic that came up a Corvette Club meeting once. A rather dickish young fellow said "I can tell the age of the driver if he's got chrome rims or not." I retorted "and we can tell your age if they are "rims" instead of "wheels."

No offense to our more "experienced" members as I am continually in awe of how much I learn each time I'm on the board.

Is that before, or after the Wanenmacher's Tulsa Arms Show?

Keith:

We would love to have a preview of that display (or should I say "a view of that display before you actually make the display") as soon as you are ready.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Nonmenclature....

I think the OPs question was answered ad infinitum, lots of interesting explanations and opinions,
I chuckled a bit being that flundertaker has been here since 2013 and almost wondered if he wanted to stir the pot a tiny bit lol.

But the discussion reminded me of a thread years ago, I had acquired a Combat Magnum that IIRC had a serial and ship date that should have put it into the range of Model number guns but it did not have one stamped in the yoke cut, I referred to it as a "Pre 19" at the time, my friend Chris SNW19 pmd me and we got into an interesting discussion on the topic,
In the end he suggested that it might be better to refer to that gun as a "Non model marked Model 19" to which I agreed, btw IIRC the factory designation for that model was KT357 , I could be wrong I'm getting old.

The N Target frame .357 has more history and as such more nuances, while there are no 5 screw Combat Magnums there are 4 and 5 screw N Target frame .357's.
Can't recall if the SW ads and box's all say "The .357 Magnum" or if some say "The S&W .357 Magnum", it suffices to say the NT357 was the only .357 SW offered up until the introduction of the "Highway Patrolman" ( maybe the quotation marks go outside the "the"?).
If "The" is actually part of the name it gets real confusing like who's on first kinda thing,
Man walks into gun store in 1956, I wanna buy the SW .357 Magnum I was looking at last week, which one? The S&W .357 Magnum, ... oh you mean this one with the fancy checkered top? No the other S&W .357 Magnum the 4" one, Do you mean the Combat Magnum? No the cheaper one with the smooth top....oh the Highway Patrolman?
Model numbers made that easier, they also enabled us to ping the guns era, imagine if no Model number system existed you'd be saying I have a Combat Magnum dash 3.
It's confusing enough that SW revived the old name M&P and applies it to their various handguns and rifles in various calibers.

I try not to get hung up on the whole pre model stuff, especially if you add how many screws it has and what year it's from or add the name so we are on the same page.
If someone says "I have a four inch, four screw SW .357 Magnum that shipped around 1956-57", my next question will be ... Which model?

I grew up spending a lot more time pouring over the Shooters Bible, than I did Kings Jame's version. I was self educated on both model numbers and names.

Then when I got out into the real world and started encountering these gun as real objects, and not just a fuzzy black and white picture, I found out they were made before model numbers were "invented" shall we say. It's a "Pre-27? Got it. It's the same gun as a Model 27, just made before they were given model numbers.

Seemed logical to me.

Then I found out about "dash" numbers.

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John 3:16 .

never heard anyone refer to my pre39 as a "model 9mm Automatic pistol"...

If they did, I'd have to tell them: No, it's only a semi-automatic.

As for "Long Colt"...then there are those people who will tell you all about the short Colt (Schofield) cartridge that it came to differentiate...blah, blah, blah.

There's effective communication, then there's speaking to engineers.

When I was a youngster, I never heard the term "semi-automatic" anything. I KNEW there was a difference, I read a lot of books and magazines, but a Browning A5 was a "Browning "Automatic". What I know today as a 1911, was a "45 Automatic" or an "Army Colt." And you charged it with a "clip." I knew it was a "magazine" but I sure wasn't going to tell "Mr, Mac" (a WWII Marine who'd fought his way across half the Pacific) that. If he wanted to call it a peanut butter sandwich it was OK with me.

I just nodded and listened to the stories.

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John 3:16 .

We could do like the Winchester people do, just call all of them pre-57s.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

I find it hilarious that most of the purist who would never utter "pre model" regular use the term triple lock when referring to the New Century.

News flash, the actual purpose of language is to convey a thought from one to others. The rules and words used gave been under constant change and addition since the very first grunts. Thing like rules didn't even exist for the first 200,000+ years since man started actually talking. Spelling rules (1568 by Sir Thomas Smith to the creation of the creation of the Simplified Spelling Board in 1906. sentence structure, or correct grammar (1586 by William Bulloka)

In fact about 1000 words are added to the English vocabulary every single year. I have no doubt the number of phrases like "pre model" is as high or higher.

No one anywhere has appointed me as keeper of proper language. If fact the keepers of language are actually more trackers of it evolving. Ask anyone with a masters in English, they can often be found working as librarians or HS teachers.

The best speakers gauge their speech to their audience in order to best convey their thoughts

When speaking to a person who is mostly familiar with model number the pre model phase can be helpful to get them on the correct group of guns.

When speaking to a lot of collectors, using the term appears to be very effective in rising their blood pressure and receiving a lecture by someone who does not understand that language and even terminology evolves.

Evolution, some people do it, others don't.

Forgive my ignorance but the more I read the more confused I get. Glowe, since I have no access to a period catalog what is the proper name for what I've been calling a Pre-Victory 38 spec. with the DOB of 1941?

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

Commercial or military contract?

If it is chambered for .38 S&W, you could call it a BSR. Otherwise, it would be an M&P. "Victory" was never an official model name. But calling it a pre-Victory would be understandable to most. And not all M&Ps made in 1941 went to the military. And neither did all "Victories."

This one doesn't have the V in the serial number. It was purchased by my late brother years ago and he thought it had come from a former police officer but has no other markings other than the factory ones. Thanks for the info.

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

Without a V prefix to the SN and no topstrap property stamps, and chambered in .38 Special, it is very likely to have been a civilian commercial M&P. The only way to know for sure what you have would be to get it lettered.

[QUOTE=44wheelman;142024884]never heard anyone refer to my pre39 as a "model 9mm Automatic pistol"...

If they did, I'd have to tell them: No, it's only a semi-automatic.

44wheelman, you might want to take a look at this image.

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David Reynolds

OP, your reasoning is correct.

Speaking for myself on the other commentary, I'll refer to 'pre-model' when talking to other collectors and they typically do the same--just easier, but I suppose a critic could say it's lazy.

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Rather be outdoors

I can see your reasoning for thinking so based on the way this thread has (de)evolved. However, i assure you that wasnt my intent. I didnt even own a pre-model anything up until about 2 months ago and had spend most of my time on this forum in the 1961-80 subforum. Also my question was answered in the first reply. I simply wanted to know which models bridged the point in time from pre model numbered to model numbered. I suppose I could have gone the the bible and looked at every one and noted which it applied to but that would be very time consuming and I figured (correctly) that someone here could rattle off the list faster than I could find the good book and get started.
Like many of the threads on this forum, I have learned far more than my original question. It seems most dont sweat the nomenclature much but can in the right circles switch back and forth to technically correct names. Ill try to do so as well based on what I have learned.

Funny, I never hear any beef about the term "transitional", even though I don't believe any factory literature mentions it. By the way, if you want know the difference between a "Transitional" 357 magnum and a pre-27, I can help with that. Be sure and bring your checkbook...

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Randy
SWCA #2468 SWHF #346