Snubby "sight picture".

Ilike9mm · Aug 20, 2011

.38, sure you've seen a million of them!

I know I will invoke the wrath of S & W purists. The front sight of my snub nose .38 is high and blocks the view of the target; I can't see what I want to hit.

I want to take my pistol over to the bench grinder and grind off about a quarter inch (approx.) of front sight, so that I can line up the front with the rear and have a "good sight picture". I think: functionality over appearance, get it so it is accurate! On the other side of the coin: "what the hell...grinding off material on a perfectly good gun"? You can never put it back and I might ruin the resale value, even though I don't plan on selling.

Any other ideas? I am just a plinker, but I like to be "dead on".

one eye joe · Aug 20, 2011

OBVIOUSLY, if you are contemplating this mod that in 60+ years of shooting, I have never heard of someone needing to do, your sight picture is in need of correction, and NOT your revolver. Get with an NRA Certified instructor who can help you with your technique BEFORE YOU RUIN THAT WEAPON.....(some KNOWLEDGEABLE pistoleros have filed SA front sights to achieve a common POA/POI with a CORRECT sight picture. That is NOT YOUR ISSUE ) BTW--welcome to the Forum.....

sbcman · Aug 20, 2011

I know I will invoke the wrath of S & W purists.

Hmmm...maybe

Get with an NRA Certified instructor who can help you with your technique BEFORE YOU RUIN THAT WEAPON.....

Yep!

What the · Aug 20, 2011

I'm not sure what your sight picture looks like to you. Does the gun shoot high? Are you shooting at 10 yards, 25 yards? Do 158 grain slugs shoot to a different POI than 130 grain?

There are a lot of variables in POA/POI and you may have to change one thing about your sight picture at a time until you hit where you want. I agree you may want a known good shooter to try your gun before any grinding takes place!

Short barrel revolvers take much time and practice to master especially shooting D/A. But the effort is well worth it and will improve your shooting skills immensely with all types of handguns.

Don't give up and start grinding just yet, seek out those you trust and take a class with that specific snub-gun. Good luck and enjoy!!

TommyW · Aug 20, 2011

First, you have to look at the difference between sight picture and sight alignment.

Basically, with sight picture, you're looking "through" the sights at the target, lining everything up, and picking what you would like as a preferred point of impact. And, making sure that the front sight is "properly positioned" in relation to the rear sight.

From there, you concentrate on sight alignment, which is merely shifting the focus of your eye to the front sight, making sure that it is crystal clear and still lined up. The human eye can not focus on all 3 things. You will not see that defined point on the target. The rear sight and target will be out of focus. That's the way it works and you have to trust it.

TNDave · Aug 20, 2011

A lot of Smiths hit on top of the front sight with 158 gr loads. That is the bread and butter bullet weight for the 38 Special. If you are shooting fast, light bullets they will print lower. When you say the gun is hitting low enough you can't see what you want to shoot, how low is it hitting at 7 yards? Does it hit low for everyone?

I would be reluctant to grind the front sight. Try loading three rounds and two empties and make sure you are executing perfectly every shot. You may be hitting low because of the way you are handling the gun.

Alk8944 · Aug 20, 2011

Ilike9mm said:
.38, sure you've seen a million of them!

I know I will invoke the wrath of S & W purists. The front sight of my snub nose .38 is high and blocks the view of the target; I can't see what I want to hit.

I want to take my pistol over to the bench grinder and grind off about a quarter inch of front sight, so that I can line up the front with the rear and have a "good sight picture". I think: functionality over appearance, get it so it is accurate! On the other side of the coin: "what the hell...grinding off material on a perfectly good gun"? You can never put it back and I might ruin the resale value, even though I don't plan on selling.

Any other ideas? I am just a plinker, but I like to be "dead on".

First, the basic sight picture for any gun with open sights is with the front sight centered in the rear notch, and the top of the front sight even with the rear sight. Any S&W revolver will shoot within a few inches of where the sights are aligned when proper ammunition is used. In the case of your Model 60 that would be 158 gr. bullets.

Second, 1/4"?? Look closely, the front sight isn't even 1/4" high!

Let me tell you what I read into your post, based on what you have said. You have never fired a revolver, or probably any handgun, in your life. You, like many non-shooters, assume the barrel should point directly at the target, and you see that when held this way the front sight appears to be too high. This situation is perfectly normal and is done by design.

Before firing a handgun must be aligned with the barrel pointed to a position well below the intended point-of-impact. This is because the gun begins to recoil the instant the charge fires and the bullet begins to move. The gun will "climb" in recoil until, at the time the bullet actually leaves the muzzle, the barrel is actually pointed at the target or slightly above. Those nasty "physics" things, momentum and all.

Go shoot the gun, aligning the sights as noted above, and see where the bullet hits. Since you haven't shot a revolver before I will bet the point of impact will be low as you have not developed trigger control yet and will probably "jerk" the trigger.

Malysh · Aug 20, 2011

"The front sight of my snub nose .38 is high and blocks the view of the target"

This sounds like you are placing the front sight very high in relation to the rear sight notch. The top of the front sight of any revolver or pistol should not be extending higher than the top of the rear sight ears.
Have you recently got interested in handguns? If so, that would explain your statement.

I would also urge you to take an NRA course in basic safety and marksmanship.

Chubbs103 · Aug 20, 2011

"Equal height, equal light"

I don't remember who told me that mantra, but it follows what everyone else is saying. Equal height means that the top of the rear sight notch should be even with the top of the front sight. Equal light means that the front sight should be centered in the rear sight notch.

I've included a link that may help graphically.

Proper Sight Picture And Target Mistakes!

Chubbs

Malysh · Aug 20, 2011

If you ground off 1/4" off the front sight you will have no front sight left. The highest point of a J frame front sight is maybe a little less, or just about 1/4" high.

When you take a little bit of steel off of a front sight you are talking about 1/64" or 1/32" not a quarter inch!

Which brings to mind if you do take a little bit of steel off of a front sight you wouldn't use a bench grinder! You would use a fine file.

At least you asked some questions before you acted. Everyone had to learn at the beginning, and nobody knows everything. Asking questions is the smart thing to do.

one eye joe · Aug 20, 2011

Chubbs103 said:
"Equal height, equal light"

I don't remember who told me that mantra, but it follows what everyone else is saying. Equal height means that the top of the rear sight notch should be even with the top of the front sight. Equal light means that the front sight should be centered in the rear sight notch.

I've included a link that may help graphically.

Proper Sight Picture And Target Mistakes!

Chubbs

Chubbs, I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE. As a handgun shooter for over 50 yrs, a Bullseye League competitor for over 30 years (shooting an average of 293-295 for the last 10 years), and an NRA Certified Instructor for over 30 years, I MUST declare that the proper Bullseye Pistol sight placement for an iron sighted handgun is the "6 O'CLOCK HOLD". NO HIGH LEVEL COMPETITOR THAT I KNOW OF, has ever sighted a handgun as illustrated in your link. The error chart IS VALID, however.......

Wheelgunner840 · Aug 20, 2011

one eye joe;I MUST declare that the proper Bullseye Pistol sight placement for an iron sighted handgun is the "6 O'CLOCK HOLD". NO HIGH LEVEL COMPETITOR THAT I KNOW OF, has ever sighted a handgun as illustrated in your link. The error chart IS VALID, however.......

Joe, you are correct about a 6 o' clock hold in bullseye shooting when using a bullseye pistol set up. As you know we set our sights to do precisely that. While the illustration is incorrect for shooting bullseye (competition) with a gun that has the sights adjusted for that type shooting, combat sights are very often set at "center hold" which the illustration linked to by Chubbs shows.

That model 60s sights are most likely set for a center hold from the factory. (My model 36 is,) With that type sight set up, one would shoot at a bullseye target with the sight alignment / sight picture shown. This is how I must shoot at a bullseye target with my guns that have fixed sights set in a center hold configuration.

Like you, all my bullseye guns have adjustable sights, and are set for a six 0' clock hold.

BTW, I see you are a fellow Rhode Islander! Where do you shoot? From your post, I bet we have shot together at some point. I have been a member of the Providence Revolver Club (16 years), and The Pine tree Gun Club (4 years). Used to do a lot of bullseye shooting with PRC.

Almost forgot to address the OP! Do not grind anything off that gun!!! Set a paper plate target out about 21 feet. Have an experienced shooter who knows about sight alignment and sight picture (and trigger control, breath control, and follow through) shoot the target using a center hold, (or 6 0' clock hold) in single action mode using 158 grain bullets. You will soon see if the POA and POI differ. I would guess that if done correctly, the gun will shoot POA. If not, adjust your sight picture accordingly, but do not grind the front sight off that gun!!!

WG840

BUFF · Aug 21, 2011

Ilike9mm:

Your photo looks like your Model 60 may have some orange paint on the bottom of the rear face of your front sight blade, the part you will be looking at when you shoot. I bet this paint is confusing you to some degree.

The paint (if that is what I am seeing) wasn't put there by the factory. Some previous owner probably painted the front sight. It is a commonly done thing to make the front sight easier to see when in a hurry.

I would clean the paint off completely. If you like it, buy some model airplane paint or fingernail polish of the color you like and cover the whole serrated portion of the rear of the sight blade.

Like others have posted, the proper sight picture for your gun will have your front sight blade centered in the rear sight notch, with the top edges of both even with each other. If you ground off the front sight, your gun will shoot pretty high at most distances.

dubhelix · Aug 22, 2011

If plinking was the name of the game, I'd look for a model 63 or 617. Those models have adjustable sights and the ammo is cheap. IMHO, The model 60 was designed to perforate the center of 24" x 72" targets at ranges of 7 yards or less, and the fixed sights work great in that application.

Ilike9mm · Aug 22, 2011

Thanks for the advice. I feel as though I did not express myself in a clear fashion. How about this: I can't hit **** with that dam tall front sight in my way. How the **** do you guys master these things? What if there was a bug in this guys nostril and I wanted to help him out?

blujax01 · Aug 22, 2011

If I read you correctly, you have the groove in the back lined up with the red line in front and pointed at his nose. The rounds are hitting him in the forehead.
Line up the top of the front sight (not the redline) with the groove in the back (Raise the back of the gun) and you'll hit that booger-picker clean in the schnoozola.

dubhelix · Aug 22, 2011

Like this:

Ed45 · Aug 22, 2011

The experienced shooters here have amply hashed the proposition that the front sight "blocks" the target. On the positive side, may I suggest that maybe a third of your range time be used working on your front sight issues and the remainder be used in MUZZEL SIGHTING the shots from your snubbie. If you ever have to use that snubbie for defensive purposes, the LAST thing on your mind will be aquiring the sight picture. Get a human size silhouette target and "aim" using the front of your snub as the sight. You might surprise yourself at how many center mass hits you make! Practice makes perfect and could save your life.

Malysh · Aug 22, 2011

Ilike9mm said:
Thanks for the advice. I feel as though I did not express myself in a clear fashion. How about this: I can't hit **** with that dam tall front sight in my way. How the **** do you guys master these things? What if there was a bug in this guys nostril and I wanted to help him out?

You expressed yourself fine and we all understood you fine.
You just don't know how to line up the sights.

Take a good look at the picture dubhelix posted.
THAT is the way you line up ANY firearm sights.

RichCapeCod · Aug 22, 2011

You’ve gotten good advice from the other guys. I used to be responsible for conducting the NYPD Police Firearms Instructors School while assigned to the Firearms and Tactics Unit. Your primary aiming point is your front sight. The top of the front sight should be neither higher nor lower then the wings of the rear sight. At combat range(5’ to 15’), as a practical matter, all you need do is focus on the front sight and get anything from a “flash sight picture” to just focus on the front sight in order to hit your target (assuming, a big “assume,” that you control your trigger during firing).

Please don’t grind down your front sight. You won’t be happy if you do so.

Rich

Snubby "sight picture".

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