Model 33-1 bullet diameter .358 or .360

Let me start off by saying I've tried to do my homework on this one both on the forum search and on the Internet. Nothing definitive. I don't want to be the guy who asks without looking to see if existing information is available.
I even sent an email to S&W re. bore size on 33-1and no reply.

So since the S&W Forum is the place for all things S&W, I will pose the question here. What bullet diameter is proper for the 33-1?

I know earlier 38 S&W 38 cal. were .360 but was given to understand S&W was making J frame 38 Special concurrent with model 33-1s and those 38 Specials would have been a nominal .357 or .358. I was told it was likely the bore size in this final 38 S&W model would have been the .357 rather than making a .360 barrel for the very few 33-1 revolvers being sold after 1961. My 33-1 is a neat little gun with 4 in. barrel and has the 1.4 inch cylinder length which, again, I'm told is the length used by 38 Special in J frame.

I'm also aware that with unhardened lead bullets they will either bump up or squeeze down to go through the barrel depending on bullet dia. and barrel size. I'd rather be spot on than even safely squeeze or expand the wrong dia. through the barrel.

I'd like to know so I can reload for my 33-1 with correct size bullets and minimize leading and maximize accuracy.

Thanks for any information.

Easy way to find out is to buy a set of calipers and measure the cylinder throats. Basic reloader's dial calipers can be had for very little, and are quite handy.

Need not be as big and fancy as these:



But if all you have are a set of these:


it can be made to work...

Hopefully your cylinder throats aren't too huge, as bullets over .360" aren't exactly common.

Real numbers would be of interest over "what should have been" as well. I'm curious! (Not that I have a .38 S&W calibered revolver as new as yours.)

Since we're not talking about a target gun and 50 yard accuracy here anyway, as long as it's not spreading then into a circle the size of a trash can lid at ten yards it's a moot point. Actually, .358 and .357 lead do quite well in these little guns for what they are, which are not target grade powerhouses as I've said.. But both Magtech and Missouri Bullet Company offer.360 diameter slugs just for the little 38 S&W and and it's not like you're gonna shoot thousands of them anyway.

I like to be able to reload for anything I have, even down to the useless 25 acp, but I always figured if I had between 200 and 300 rounds (4 to 6 boxes) for obsolete, marginal or obscure calibers in the collection I had more than I'd likely ever realistically shoot.

And when it comes time to sell one like that from the collection, I've always found it a bonus locally to be able to offer hard-to-find ammo with the gun making the sale more attractive.

When getting enthused about a lot of the guns we get interested in we sometimes lose focus on the 'big picture', though no doubt somewhere some cheapskate prepper survival type is hoarding thousands of rounds of 38 S&W for his own use since after the apocalypse he won't be able to buy rounds for his main handguns which are old victory model S&W's . . .

Here's a solution:







Just reuse them...200gr bullet recovered out of a 50 yard target frame.

And, yes, the Terrier has shot targets at 50 yards. But some days are better than others...

Model 33-1 38 S&W Correct bullet diameter

jaymoore said:

Easy way to find out is to buy a set of calipers and measure the cylinder throats. Basic reloader's dial calipers can be had for very little, and are quite handy.

Hopefully your cylinder throats aren't too huge, as bullets over .360" aren't exactly common.

Real numbers would be of interest over "what should have been" as well. I'm curious! (Not that I have a .38 S&W calibered revolver as new as yours.)
______________________________________
Thanks for your suggestion. I should have known to do those measurements but there is nothing like someone jabbing you in the butt with the obvious to stir you to action.

The cylinder throats measured .357 despite the fact the barrel is clearly marked "38 S&W Ctg" and we all 'know' 38 S&W is nominally .360 dia.

My 33-1 is Ser. 08647 if that is relevant. I'm guessing that is early in the run of model33-1s but don't have access to the S&W book that would tell me. It has the 1.4" cyl. length, same as 38 spl. length in J frames.

I read somewhere but didn't save the source, that model 33-1s had 38 spl. measurements in nearly all regards except the cylinders were bored to 38 S&W cartridge length. Seems that source was correct. A 38 Special cartridge will not load in my 33-1 cylinder.

The Reeds Ammo and Research commercial reloads I have are 146 gr. lead roundnose and they measure .357 just ahead of the Starline brass. Again, just guessing but that seems an obvious decision on Reed's part since .357 will 'bump up' for .360 barrels and be perfect for 33-1 barrels.

All good research brings up additional questions and though I don't intend on reloading to 38 Special specifications one wonders if the 33-1 is similar in all aspects except depth of the cylinder bore, to J frame 38 specials i.e., was the metallurgy the same as 38 special J frames that were being made at the same time?

Thanks again to both respondents for their help.

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So my pre-War Terrier needs .360" bullets for when I shoot terrorists at 200+ yards?

Froggie

Would love to know the answer to OP's metallurgy question, as I load for several 33-1's, a couple of I-Terriers, a couple of J-Terriers, plus 7 more revolvers in this caliber.

Several years ago when I started accumulating revolvers in this caliber, I slugged barrels on a 32-1 and a 33-1 and the results were .359 as best I could tell. Never have slugged chambers, but have experienced satisfactory accuracy from 135g Gold Dots .357, as well as four styles of 200g bullets at .358. .359, .360 and .361. I've also loaded some as-cast at .362 and possibly .363.

I've sampled a further variety of bullets from 110g JHP's, 140g SWC, 148g WC, 150g LRN, 158g LSWC, and perhaps others I don't recall offhand. Of course Winchester and Remington 145-46g factory LRN's, as well, plus vintage .38-200 Super Police LRN and 150g Colt New Police LFP. Also CIS 178g Mk2Z FMJ service ammo.

The S&W's chamber & shoot anything I feed 'em! A couple of Colts and two Rugers have much tighter chambers and generally won't accept anything bigger than .357-.359, depending on seating depth of the bullet/cartridge. As best I could tell with one of the Colts, its bore size was .355, and the Ruger manuals state a bore size of .3565 to .3575.

My old top-breaks are used ONLY with mild factory or equivalent loads. The others have been used with loads from Lyman, Lee, Speer, as well as Ken Waters's "Pet Loads" from some years back. Waters didn't pressure test, but carefully measured brass and described case expansion of every load he recommended--anything that expanded beyond limits he viewed as safe, he didn't publish. Off the top of my head, the heaviest load was a 200g bullet at 884fps or thereabouts--nope, not a typo. He was using an Indian contract Ruger Service Six, but considered that the loads he published were suitable for modern, solid-framed guns since the I-frame, as well as British Enfield and Webley service revolvers.

Ed Harris considers the same solid-frame guns to be capable of 200g @ 700fps without loosening the gun. Ed McGivern, a shooter but not a gunfighter to my knowledge, carried an I-frame Regulation Police (pre-33) in a suspender holster and described it as hard-hitting--I suspect he loaded Colt New Police or .38-200 Super Police, but that's just a guess.

My own, much more limited experiences with this cartridge & these guns, have been consistent with the results described by Waters, Harris and McGivern. The .38 S&W is by all accounts capable of low-end .38 SPL performance from solid-frame guns, and I consider that its reputation suffered fatally from the fact that millions of top-break pocket guns were designed for much more modest performance levels. Personally, I've benefited greatly from the urban legends that marginalized this caliber, because I've been able to pick up some great guns as a result.

Green Frog said:

So my pre-War Terrier needs .360" bullets for when I shoot terrorists at 200+ yards?

Froggie

Click to expand...

It might make hitting them a tiny bit easier...

LouisianaMan said:

...I've sampled a further variety of bullets from 110g JHP's, 140g SWC, 148g WC, 150g LRN, 158g LSWC, and perhaps others I don't recall offhand. Of course Winchester and Remington 145-46g factory LRN's, as well, plus vintage .38-200 Super Police LRN and 150g Colt New Police LFP. Also CIS 178g Mk2Z FMJ service ammo.

...

Click to expand...

How about the old MagSafe .38 S&W load? 60 grain bullet at something like 1400 fps, but don't hold me to those numbers. I've a partial package still at home. It worked great in the Terrier, but they quit making it long ago.

Hi Jay,
I'm not familiar with that one at all. Are you sure it's not .38 SPL?

LouisianaMan said:

Hi Jay,
I'm not familiar with that one at all. Are you sure it's not .38 SPL?

Click to expand...

Google it - it's an antique cartridge that preceded the 38 special. I think the Brits called it the 38/200. It's roughly the same size but shorter and not interchangeable with the 38 special so it's not a '38 short'. A lot of S&W's made for the Brits were in this caliber in the old 'Victory" models and many that made their way back here have been bored out to 38 special or had cylinders swapped.

You could do like I do. 148 grain HBWC, loaded to the length of a RN bullet. If my gun has a 357 barrel, no problem, the bullet is 357. If my gun has a 360 barrel, the hollow skirt will open up and grab the walls anyway. Win/win.

I have never found the correct (.360"?) bullets locally and have had very good accuracy with Speer swaged bullets, both the semiwadcutters and the HBWCs. I think either they bump up a bit or the S&W bore sizes I have shot them in are smaller than I thought they were. I have never 'slugged' one.

LouisianaMan said:

Hi Jay,
I'm not familiar with that one at all. Are you sure it's not .38 SPL?

Click to expand...

Yup. .38 S&W caliber. Still have the packaging. Can do photos if you want.

jaymoore said:

It might make hitting them a tiny bit easier...

Click to expand...

But I saw Sherlock Magnum do it on TV in a blinding sandstorm with one hand after being shot twice in that shoulder. It should be easy for a real shooter like myself to do it while healthy!

Froggie

Hmmm, my chambers measure .362+, & my bullets are .361, but mine is a post war - pre model marked version. (1954?...another attack of crs)

LouisianaMan said:

Hi Jay,
I'm not familiar with that one at all. Are you sure it's not .38 SPL?

Click to expand...

The .38 S&W MagSafe of many years ago. Probably early '90s?





$16.99 was the price back then! Would have purchased a whole box of 50 145gr LRN ammo.

NFrameFred said:

Google it - it's an antique cartridge that preceded the 38 special. I think the Brits called it the 38/200. It's roughly the same size but shorter and not interchangeable with the 38 special so it's not a '38 short'. A lot of S&W's made for the Brits were in this caliber in the old 'Victory" models and many that made their way back here have been bored out to 38 special or had cylinders swapped.

Click to expand...

NFrame,
Thanks, but I think you missed the part where I explained that I've shot & loaded extensively for the .38 S&W, and am familiar with its origins and development. My surprise was that MagSafe made high-performance ammo in this caliber in the not-so-distant past. Certainly, MagSafe wasn't around when the cartridge was used starting in 1879, or in the days when the old top-breaks ruled the roost in home defense and concealed carry.

Jaymoore,
Thanks for the photos--that's something else! The package references the ammo's use in an SP-101, which I can't imagine was ever offered in .38 S&W--that's weird.

On the other hand, the package clearly states the caliber as .38 S&W, and even asserts that it's safe in the old top-breaks! Absolutely amazing, as those things were intended for about 8-10,000 PSI (or CUP, I forget which). Without double-checking my manuals, the SAAMI max pressure is 13K. I wonder if the MagSafe operated at a lesser pressure, and still attained 1450 fps????

I'd love to chrono it from my Indian-contract Rugers, but would be afraid to try it in my old S&W 3rd Model.

Sectional density of the old standard 146g bullet is 0.162, assuming .359 diameter. For the MagSafe bullet, it's only 0.053. Gracious, it must be practically explosive.

jbinwa,

When in doubt, always slug your bore. Then you'll know for sure. You can use a 357 lead bullet because when you pound it down the barrel point first (with lubrication of course) the base will upset enough to fill the grooves of your rifling.

Regarding your cylinder heat treatment question, all Smiths of the J frame size and of the same period will have the same heat treatment. Smith looked for ways to simplify production, not complicate it by having different treatment for like revolvers, i.e., 38 S&W vs. 38 Spl cylinders.