Remember when the term ".38 Special" mean't a serious service revolver?

Well, there are lots of ways of looking at this. Would I choose to carry a full size .38 as my every day concealment gun? No. Would I choose a full size .38 for my wife as a home defense gun? Yes. That is the most she could conceivably handle. Would I choose a J frame .38 as a concealment gun over a .380? Absolutely! I think modern .38 special ammo is on the lower end of acceptable self defense ammunition, but, to me at least, it is suitable in many situations. I carried an M60 with Hydra Shoks as a backup and when I couldn't conceal my 1911 in the '80s, and felt that it was the best option for the circumstances. As always, ymmv.
 
A Fabulous Thread

I just want to say what a great thread this is. I carried a 10/15/19/66 (with 38s) nearly all of my LE life until mandated to switch to a bottom feeder 9. Today, as a retired geezer, I sent myself a memo allowing the carry of 38s..:D

It's encouraging to know there's still shooters who are more focused on things like marksmanship than what brand of laser is best ...:rolleyes:

Thanks for the memories.


Sgt Lumpy
 
SgtLumpy said:
I just want to say what a great thread this is. I carried a 10/15/19/66 (with 38s) nearly all of my LE life until mandated to switch to a bottom feeder 9. Today, as a retired geezer, I sent myself a memo allowing the carry of 38s..:D
It's encouraging to know there's still shooters who are more focused on things like marksmanship than what brand of laser is best ...:rolleyes:

Thanks for the memories.


Sgt Lumpy
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Sgt. Lumpy, I like your "handle" . I had a sergeant fifteen years ago that had "Lumpy" as his nickname.
Unlike you, I am not retired yet and do not have permission on my badge to carry any kind of revolver anymore, so I did, in my opinion, the next best thing.. got myself a CCH permit and now carry my old Model 10 when I feel the urge. Still shoot it better than the combat Tupperware....
 
BAM-BAM said:
The .38 is the Rodney Dangerfield of cartridges..... I bet the majority of .357 magnum guns out there are loaded with 5-8 .38 specials... maybe +P or +P+ but still .38s.

I will admit that most of the time my 3inch 66 is stoked with +P .38s. I want to know I've got a fast 2nd shot!

Heck ..... what's the line from Magnum Force where we learn Dirty Harry is really carrying down loaded .44 magnums....... LOL... .44 Specials ...... for better control...............

Edit: does anyone make a 38/44 hollow point load these days.... ????
Click to expand...

Buffalo Bore "Heavy" 38 Special loads, I think, are what you may want. Considering ordering some for both of my M10 4" revolvers....
 
Men in the Eastern US must have been smaller and easier to kill in the "good old days" (pre 1930)*

Civilians carried Colt .25s in their vest pockets, or Colt 1903 .32apc. autos in their overcoats....... or maybe a revolver in .38 S&W.

Police carried 4 inch .32 Colt or S&W revolvers or,......

................... the S&W M&P in S&Ws .38Special!

In 1930.... we grew in stature and hid behind cars..... so the police needed the new and improved .38....... the .38/44 Heavy Duty.... chambered for the ".38 Super Police" round.

But that was still not enough....... 1935 S&W gave us the .357magnum..... to hunt big game and the FBI to hunt really, really bad guys........

and then S&W rested!




Until 1955 and the .44 magnum to hunt dangerous game!**

and in 1964 ..... we finally got the "ideal police round"*** ....... the .41magnum!!!!!!!




Footnotes:

* West of the Mississippi true law men needed a .44, .45 long Colt or .45acp!!!

** It wasn't until 1971 that we first saw Dirty Harry hunt really really dangerous game with his .44magnum

*** SCS&W p.220
 
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I hold a different view than a previous poster above, of the .38 Special and the proper revolver in which to house it. I view the currently super popular .38 Special snubs as nothing more than a side show for the cartridge. In my view the .38 Special's proper and best application is still in the full-sized, six-shot, steel-framed revolver. Such revolvers may not be as easy to conceal, may not be as feathery light in weight, but they're distinctly easier to shoot. Their ergonomics offer an advantage. They offer more performance from the cartridge. They handle good full-power .38 Special loadings with less perceived recoil and they offer more durability when such loads are used with frequency.

As a hiking companion the full-sized .38 Special revolver offers the opportunity for surer hits on targets at distance. As a plinker it offers a revolver that is more gratifying to shoot over a long afternoon. For home defense it can gen up a little more punch and is more controllable.

The .38 Special is a better cartridge than something only fit for tiny snubs though a generation has completely forgotten that fact.

I too, only use .357 Magnum ammunition in my .357 Magnum revolvers. The rest of that story is that I don't select a .357 Magnum very often for anything but range use. I deliberately choose the .38 Special because I like the revolvers, trust the cartridge, and actually don't believe that the .357 offers as much of a performance advantage over the .38 Special as is popularly believed. I have used both in the field and seen both used in the field by others.

If I get the notion that I want more horsepower than is offered with my favorite .38 Special revolvers and loads then I'll reach right past the .357 Magnums for something in the .44/.45 caliber range. The .357 Magnum is a great all-around cartridge but big-bore is where it's at if one requires more meaningful "stomp" out of his handgun.

As it is, the .38 Special is a pretty well-balanced cartridge for flinging bullets of .358 diameter. It ought to be more popular with this current generation than it is.
 
I almost didn't buy a Ruger Speed Six 2.75" .38, because it wasn't .357.
Then, I came to my senses and it followed me home.
I remembered that the FBI load is a damned good defensive load.
I remembered that Buffalo Bore loads ammo for it that really doesn't give up anything to any defensive pistol round.
I also remembered that Jim Cirillo put .38 wadcutters to very good use.
Plus, I remembered how accurate .38 is and how well I shoot it.
I also remembered that only hits count.
 
Jaymo said:
...I remembered that the FBI load is a damned good defensive load.
I remembered that Buffalo Bore loads ammo for it that really doesn't give up anything to any defensive pistol round.
I also remembered that Jim Cirillo put .38 wadcutters to very good use.
Plus, I remembered how accurate .38 is and how well I shoot it.
I also remembered that only hits count.
Click to expand...

That says it very well!
 
So many people have been convinced by gun mags that only rounds that blow a softball sized hole in a man are good for self defense.
Jim Cirillo and company put a bunch of bad sumbitches in their graves with .38 wadcutters.
The media have also convinced most people that the bad guys all have full auto AKs and burpguns, and that the cops are woefully outgunned without 15+ round combat Tupperware.

Did I mention that I'm looking at a 10-6? It ain't pretty on the outside, but it's got a sweet trigger.
Plus, it's $200 out the door.
 
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I'm issued a Sig 226 in 40sw for duty. Everyone in the county that I work is issued one as well, regardless of agency. However, inside a holster attached to my vest strap, is a bobbed M37 loaded with Remington 125 grain +P's.

When I'm off-duty, I carry a 649 no dash loaded with the Remmies too. When the weather gets cooler, I get out the M19 2 1/2" loaded, again, with the Remmies.

Semi autos are fine, and I love my Sigs, but the revolvers are home to me. They are my "1911". And specifically, the 38 special is my chosen cartridge for them. Plenty of power, great accuracy, tons of options for bullet weight. You don't stay in the game this long without being really good at what you do...
 
My post #65 in this thread was in jest...... after reading this thread and the threads about the "wimpy" 9mm cartridge, and "School me about the .380"

For the past 100 we seem to be trying for bigger, faster, bader .... ammo.......for hand guns. My handguns I'm sorry to say don't work like they do in the movies

Shot placement is King..... ..38/44, .357 and .38 super... were adopted or developed to shoot through car doors and windshields.

I don't shoot through a lot of car doors or windshields and I don't load up round nose lead or FMJ rounds except at the range.

My self defense guns are all loaded with modern hollow point .38,9mm or .45..I don't believe one should rely on some magic bullet to give a one shot stop 100% of the time.

In the years that I had to qualify I shot scores of 95% and up ...100% with fist size center of mass grouping was the norm. My goal is to get 2-3 well placed shots on target as quickly as possible...............I can do that better and faster with one of the three rounds listed than I can with a .357 magnum from a 2-4 inch 20-32 oz gun.

My goal is to continue my record of the past 35 years of having a concealed carry permit .... for the next 30...... of not shooting anybody!

I love my L Frames, and like my N frames......... but I'm generally carrying a 3913 or 3" 66 or 65.

"I don't always carry a revolver, but when I do.......... it's loaded with +P .38 special hollow points" LOL See post #56
 
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Lot of folks hear "38 Special" and think of a musical group....

Couple of years ago, a friend had a Victory in 38 S&W. We made some fun plinking loads for it, but in researching it, we discovered the old Brit 38-200 (or 380-200), which replaced the .455 in that Army's Webley. The Brit rational, I read, was that a slow, heavy bullet was just as effective in .38 as it was in .455 (insert comment on British military intelligence here).

Anyway, we found some commercial cast 200 gr. lead bullets, and ordered some .360" for him, plus some .358" for 38 Special.

For better or worse, our standard test of self-defense loads are a bunch of old stumps. The outside is still hard, and the insides are soft....just like people, we sez.....

Anyway, the 200 gr. bullets, especially in the higher velocity 38 Special perform pretty spectacularly. I'd hate to be in front of them.

And, echoing above, Lee wadcutters in a fairly hard mix, also do well.
 
My first handgun of my very own was a Webley in .455, firing .45acp in full moon clips. Uncle Sam issued me a S&W 38 and I fell in love with it. Started career with a 581 (may not be right) SS S&W with fixed sights and tiny butt. We were required to carry .38 as the decision makers were stupid. I carried mag anyway and a stripper clip of .38 for inspections. After 9 years of service I traded to the 4506 I still have. My most carried conceal is a .38 and I have never felt under armed. As has been said so many times, "shot placement is everything." Spray and pray in any caliber is for amateurs.
 
When training for my first police job in the late 70s I bought a pre-war 6" M&P and each payday bought a bag of .38 Spl wadcutter reloads, with which I practiced...practiced...practiced. I saved up and bought a box of Norma hollow points to carry, since the only thing the department issued was one shirt badge and one hat badge. I was considered very progressive due to my choice of ammo by everyone but the chief, who carried a M39 loaded with ball ammo (which was pretty much standard for the 9mm at that time).

I later "graduated" to a M-28 and a larger department, which authorized either a .38 or .357 revolver for carry, but required use of issued .38 +P ammo, which changed every year (based on low bid) from Speer 125 gr JSP to S&W 158 gr. JRN (the core overpenetrated wonderfully, while the jacket sloughed off on down vests) to finally a very decent Federal 125 gr. JHP. which was visually indistinguishable from the Treasury 110 gr +P+ loads a friend at DEA passed along to me and accounted for on the books as "surplus - provided to local LE for training purposes".

Ammo has evolved to a much higher level since then. Expanding bullets tailored for expansion at .38 Spl velocities have improved the round's performance and when I bought a 642 a few years ago I had an embarrassment of riches in the area of load selection.

My wife and son each have a 4" .38 special as their house gun and if I didn't consider it a serious cartridge I would have given them something else.
 
Good reading here. I went through my first LE academy with a 4" Model 27. I was using magnum ammo. It was a regional academy for small departments, so all variety of sidearms showed. We had two auto-shooters, a .45 ACP 1911 guy and a 9 mm Model 39 guy. Most of the rest were Model 19/66 shooters, but had one or two with good old .38 spl. All of the revolvers were S&W, not a single Colt in the bunch.
 
I read that it takes...

BSA1 said:
Another LEO that started back in the '70's. In my agency the 38 Special it was recognized that you were going to need several rounds to stop a determined attacker.

Officers that were serious about surviving gunfights carried .357 Magnum ammo and if they really flush a Colt Python or S&W Model 27.
Click to expand...

I read that it takes on the average 2.4 shots to stop an attacker with a .38 so you might as will shoot two and a half times to make sure.
 
I shoot both in my .357

I shoot plenty of .38 and .357. I could keep .357s in my gun, IF I WANTED TO, but I don't because I think the .38 +P is plenty adequate for very close encounters. People in this clime don't wear parkas. Someone already mentioned that today's bullets are not your father's bullets. Like I said before, I don't want to fire a .357 in the house. I didn't expect people on this forum to get macho and deride the balance between power and control. :(
 
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What were the choices?

Bajadoc said:
You are assuming it was a success
Click to expand...

What were the choices many years ago? You either had a .38 or a gun that was too big/powerful for the average policeman (there weren't very many police women) to qualify with. It would seem that the answer would be just to get a bigger gun. But they've been fighting over the last 30 years about what is big enough without being too big? Just because the .38 was eventually found to be inadequate doesn't mean it wasn't a success for many years.
 
Went to the range the other day with a new .357. First one since 1988. Fired some .38 and .38+P and finally loaded up 6 rounds of .357. A minute later I had said the "S" word 6 times. And my right hand was throbbing a bit. I'd forgotten just what a wallop the magnum made, even in a 3" barrel. There is power to spare. If I'd had more rounds I'd have shot more, but around here .38/.357 at a fair price is rare. $29 a box for local reloads is just stupid in my book. Thank god I don't have to shoot anymore.
 
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