Correct Ammo for Vintage Model 19 and Model 60

I am new to the forum, 61 yrs old, and had a recent life experience which convinced me to obtain my CCP. Sorry in advance for the long post. I own a 1979 .357 mag, 4" barrel Model 19 (K frame) and two 1988 2" barrel .38 special SS Model 60 (J frames) revolvers that have been rarely used and have been in storage for almost 25 yrs. Had them recently cleaned and oiled. Currently enrolled in a self defense training course. I plan on using the 357 mag at home for self defense and the two snubbies as personal carry and in the cars. I was planning on using the Speer Gold Dot 357 mag 135 gr short barrel JHP in the Model 19, and the Speer Gold Dot .38 special+p 135 gr short barrel in the Model 60s. I read some of the posts here which talk about cracking forcing cones on the Model 19s and that you could not use +p ammo in the Model 60s. I found a S&W "Instructions For Use" manual online for the ".38 Chiefs Special Stainless Revolver." The manual discusses +p ammo and that such pressures may exceed the margin of safety built into many of the handguns and could be dangerous. The manual goes on to say: "In the case of Smith & Wesson handguns chambered for .38 Special ammunition, this warning applies to all 5-shot, small-frame (Model J) revolvers and to those 6-shot, medium-frame (Model K) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. The affected medium-frame revolvers can be identified by the absence of a "Model No." stamped inside the yoke-cut of the frame." The manual is dated August 1978. All of my revolvers have model numbers stamped in the yoke. I also verified with S&W that my Model 19 was made in 1979 and the two Model 60s in 1988. That said, are there any owners of the Model 19 made in 1979 and/or Model 60 made in 1988 that have experienced failures or gun damage from using the Speer ammo (357 mag and +p) identified above? I am hoping one of you retired law enforcement officers or vintage owners who still might own or carry these particular models could share with me your real life experience with this ammo. I tried calling S&W and asking the question and was connected to someone reading from a prepared statement who knows nothing about the firearm. Again, sorry for the length of the post and if the question has already been asked. Thank you in advance for any information that you can provide. Just trying to get it right.

My opinion is that you made a good choice in ammo and revolvers, and having those bases covered, that you continue on the course of education in proper self denfense training, practice, and holsters.

As you learn you will development opinions about what works best for you, and your ideas about what works for you will likely change.

You are off to a great start, and are approaching the situation in an intelligent and logical manner.

But have you heard of anyone with these revolvers made in 1979 and 1988 having issues for running too hot of ammo?

I own similar revolvers and have had no issues with factory ammo, which is far from too hot in my opinion. I did however in my younger days introduce end shake in a model 64 with some very robust handloads that were popular in the 70s. Those handloads were loaded to a higher pressure that the rounds you mentioned. I repaired the end shake with a .004 power custom bushing, and the 64 is sound today.

You should be able to fire many of the rounds you mentioned before any adverse effects on your revolvers. If heavy use of these rounds cause you worry you could us standard 38 special loads for high volume practice.

Plus P 38 special is roughly equivalent to standard 38 special pressures of 50 years ago.

The question I believe in you case, is the ammo you mentioned "Too hot", in my opinion and in the opinion of people smarter than me who's opinion I trust, is no it is not.

And yes I know of problems cause by over pressure loads in these types of revolver, caused by poor reloading techniques, too high a pressure of handload, and credible reports of out of spec factory ammunition. But all of these are rare and as long as you use factory ammo and good sense in handloading are not something to worry about.

As an aside, I will admit I blew up a 4" Model 19 in 1997 using someone's handloads. Stick to factory ammo! Or handloads that you can trust - in my world they don't exist.

A Model 19 is about as good a choice as you can ever make for a home defense revolver. Personally, unless you shoot it constantly with full house magnum loads I do not think you will ever have a problem. Also, personally, I do not recommend .357 Magnum full house loads for home defense. It is too likely to over penetrate and go through walls into another room or across the street to your neighbor's house. Use high quality defensive .38 Special, or +P if you must, and those will do the job for you if the elephant shows up.

And welcome to the Forum!

IIRC Jan Libourel wrote he had a Model 19 that suffered from frame stretch from steady use of "hot" ammunition. The "correct" ammunition is what you can shoot most accurately, since, as Bill Jordan put it,
"Speed is fine but accuracy is final."

Welcome! I agree with bulletslap above, I would foresee no problems with regular use of the loads you mention in your steel J and K frames. You may find using standard pressure (less expensive) .38 Special loads for practice in both guns would be a good idea, and occasional use of the defense loads for familiarity would be a good practice so you know where they will print and how much they recoil.

The .357 Short Barrel load is loaded at about the level of a warm .38 Special and will definitely not put undue stress on a model 19. Stay safe out there!

Thanks to everyone who replied. So since I should stay away from the .357 rounds for the Model 19 for home defense, do you think the Speer Gold Dot 38 special+p 135 gr GDHP is a good ammo to use in the Model 19 at home and the Model 60s for conceal carry? I just want to make sure the ammo is safe to use and will stop the bad guy provided I hit center mass. Thanks again in advance. You know the guys at the sporting goods store will tell you anything to get you to buy what they have on the shelf. You guys educate me as to what I need and then I can buy the correct stuff online.

Speaking only for myself, I would not have a tendency to use any of this boutique, self defense ammo, and I do not like so called " hot" ammo, which tries to bring a gun to the next caliber. Unless the gun is specifically rated +P on your 38's or S&W saws it is OK to use, I would use 158 gr.
standard velocity hard cast lead semi wad cutters ( Keith design) in the 38's you mentioned, and the same bullet in a 357 magnum load. I would stay away from 125 grain hot loads in the model 19 in 357. You could develop split forcing cone issues. So I am saying 158 grain SWC bullets in all loadings. Just like in my 45 autos, no hot ammo. standard 230 grain full metal jackets@ about 800FPS. Worked well for our GI's in many wars. Just my .02

Just a note, if lead SWC is not to your liking, something jacketed, but still 158 gr.

You might want to view this video whilst you are thinking about ammo selection.

Greg Elliffrez info shared in video

I would not be concerned about shooting that ammo in either of those guns. You'll spend many $1,000's if not $10,000+ on ammo before wearing out either of those guns. Unless you're shooting on a weekly basis for years on end, you do not have anything to worry about. At the point were you're shooting boxes of ammo every week it might be worthwhile to get a 686 or something a little beefier.

For the most part the people breaking the forcing cones were regular shooters and often shot hot handloads.

I'm not retired LE. But I do know that the Speer Gold dot .38 +p load is about one of the only ones that meets the FBI criteria and most serious trainers will only recommend those rounds. The only 3 I know of are the Speer one you bought, the Cor Bon 110 DPX +p load and I think the new Federal HST +p load all meet the requirements.

Many of us .38 shooters don't carry those, but I personally believe those are the best choices.

HOWEVER..... I do believe the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain .38 +p load is designed for 2" revolvers and may have different performance in a longer barrel. It may open up more and not penetrate as deeply. But there may also be 2 different line items. 1 for short barrels and one for service sized barrels, let me look.

I did contact them once and asked if the short barrel .38 +P load would be recommended in my Model 19 6"er and the response was a "no".

OK, yeah, according to their website, there is only 1 .38 +p gold dot load and that is meant for Shorter barrels. I wouldn't use it in the Model 19.

Speer - Ammunition

I do think it might be wise to find a .38 special +p load for the model 19 because your follow up shots would be quicker. However, if you feel like you can handle the .357 at reasonable speeds for self defense, the 135 grain .357 SHOULD be fine for the 19. But I'm no expert and have not shot a lot through mine. It was my Step Dad's and I have no clue how many rounds he had through it. But as a CHP officer he mostly shot .38's through it for practice.

Many recommend the 158 lswc +p loads.

You might like this guy's site. Tons of good info on smith revolvers. He was an LEO Hi Powers and Handguns

Remember that being able to hit your target is much more important than what kind of ammunition you use. A hit with a .22 does a lot more damage than a miss with a .44 Magnum.

Home defense? Gimme that $2-300 security style 12 Gauge or a full size semiauto in 9mm, 40, or 45.

Shoot the 19 at the range for fun.
38 +P short barrel loads for the snubbies.

CCPnovice said:

Thanks to everyone who replied. So since I should stay away from the .357 rounds for the Model 19 for home defense, do you think the Speer Gold Dot 38 special+p 135 gr GDHP is a good ammo to use in the Model 19 at home and the Model 60s for conceal carry? I just want to make sure the ammo is safe to use and will stop the bad guy provided I hit center mass. Thanks again in advance. You know the guys at the sporting goods store will tell you anything to get you to buy what they have on the shelf. You guys educate me as to what I need and then I can buy the correct stuff online.

Click to expand...

Yes, many use the .38 Short Barrel load in .357s, especially the lightweight versions. It had a good record as the standard NYPD revolver load for many years, and as others noted practicing with it (in either gun) to achieve accurate fast and multiple hits is key.

As folks have noted, the Gold Dot Short barrel +P load is a good choice for your defensive use.

For practice, I'd probably use standard loads. Use of a jacketed/plated bullet in the .357 will minimize the carbon ring in the chambers. About every 6 months or so, finish up by burning whatever loads you've been carrying in the guns.

CCPnovice said:

So since I should stay away from the .357 rounds for the Model 19 for home defense, do you think the Speer Gold Dot 38 special+p 135 gr GDHP is a good ammo to use in the Model 19 at home and the Model 60s for conceal ca

Click to expand...

No: You should use 357 in your 357. My model 19's are 1976,1977, 6" with unknown thousands of 357 and 38 rounds through them. For the model 19 I would recommend the Speer gold dot 135 357 mag, not the short barrel version. Short version performs well in short barrels 3" or less, the standard gold dot would work well in the 4" 357. I carry Speer gold dot 38 +P 135 gr Short barrel in all my J frames. There was an article and video on the forum regarding SB GD in 4" or greater barrel length, I tried but could not find it , that the SB ammo did not perform as well as the standard in 4" or greater barrels, IIRC it was over expanding secondary to the increased velocity. Obviously you need to practice with the loads you will carry, so you are proficient with them. Using 38 special to practice is a great money saver, but you want your practice loads to hit where your carry loads do and also have similar recoil, so that you are truly training. { Perfect Practice Makes Perfect }. Spend quality time working on your trigger control, sighting, and follow through, do not just blaze away 100-200 rounds as fast as you can and call that training. It is not the number of rounds you fire but the quality of your training. Be Safe,

My opinion. You won’t wear them out unless you fire thousands of rounds through them. Use standard 38 special for practice. Plus p and magnum to make sure you hit what you’re aiming at and carry. I wouldn’t want to fire a bunch of the hotter stuff but occasionally it will probably last longer than most of us.

What I don't get is: Were 60's made in 1988 really not marked for +P on the barrel???????

I retired on the 17th of August this year, leaving only one person in my office (a dispatcher) carrying a revolver. Your Model 19 is safe with any factory loaded .357 Magnum ammunition, however, the famous 125 grain JHP ammunition is intense enough to damage the forcing cone with extensive use. (The K-Frame forcing cone is thinner on the bottom than the rest of the barrel. You can see the flat part on the bottom. The S&W L-Frame was developed to hold up to continuous use of the "hot" 125 grain magnums.) Your Model 60's are safe with any factory loaded .38 Special ammunition, standard pressure or +P. (+P+ ammo has no standards, and I wouldn't use it in a .38.)

The Speer 135 grain "Short Barrel" .357 Magnum ammunition is perfectly suitable for your Model 19 as is the Speer 135 grain "Short Barrel" .38 Special +P ammunition is perfectly suitable for your Model 60's. If you are worried about your Model 60's, Winchester's 130 grain "Train & Defend" standard pressure .38 Special has good performance in the 130 grain "Defend" JHP. The "Train" 130 grain ball ammo is a ballistic match to the "Defend" Ammo and give you 50 rounds for the price of 20 rounds of the JHP ammo.

My 4 inch Model 65-1, a little older than your Model 19, is loaded with the Speer 135 grain "Short Barrel" .357 Magnum ammo. My 2 inch Model 12-2, an alloy K-Frame that is 15 years older than your stainless steel J-Frame Chief Specials, is loaded with Winchester 130 grain "Defend" standard pressure .38 Special ammo.

To compare .38 Special and .357 Magnum ammunition in 2 and 4 inch barrels go here: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/