Correct Ammo for Vintage Model 19 and Model 60

[CCPnovice]

ABPOS: Both of the Model 60s were purchased 7-16-1988. I called S&W this week with the serial numbers and they told me the production dates were 1-4-1988 and 5-31-1988. The barrels of both guns just says .38 special. When you read the info on the +p ammunition in the S&W “Instructions for Use” the manuals says: “Some .38 Special ammunition is being manufactured to specifically meet US Treasury Department specifications for a more powerful cartridge. This so-called “Plus-P-Plus” or “Plus-Plus-P” ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of industry standards and in excess of the pressures associated with commercial-available ammunition.”

Then it goes on to say what I typed above: In the case of Smith & Wesson handguns ......

When you read the explanation in the S&W instruction manual it almost sounds like they did not believe this type of ammo would become the industry norm. Nevertheless, they said if your handgun was made after 1958 and the model number appeared in the yoke, you could shoot the +p rounds. I guess they started putting the +p on the barrel once they realized it would become the industry norm.

 

[Texas Star]

S&W told me that M-60-4 and later M-60 revolvers received added heat treatment and maybe newer steel alloys to warrant guaranteeing them (Rating) them for Plus P use.

But it seems the consensus that S&W is correct to say that their guns made after 1958 are also safe with Plus P in reasonable quantities. The -4 and later will probably just last longer with hot ammo, before developing cylinder endshake, timing problems, etc.

The late gun writer Jeff Cooper said that he handloaded very hot charges of Red Dot powder to get around 1,000 FPS with cast lead 158 grain bullets in his M-60. This was in the 1970's. He had no trouble, but never said how often he fired those very heavy loads in any one gun. I doubt that he practiced a lot with them, but they proved safe in his guns, for at least occasional business use.

Speer told me that both NYPD and LAPD ISSUED their 135 grain Short Barrel .38 ammo in ALL remaining .38 guns. They told Speer-CCI that the ammunition performed very well in actual shootings. It's what I use in my snub and three-inch (M-60-4) guns and in my Ruger SP-101 .357 for indoor use.

Speer further advised me that their Short Barrel loads were fine in barrels to four inches. They did not recommend them for longer barrels. I load their 125 grain Plus P in longer guns. Actually, I load it in my M-66-3 and my GP-100 for indoor use, as in home defense. There was a time when I used it at work, too, unless I was working an outdoor location where I might have to shoot into cars. Then, I used full .357 ammo, usually Federal's 158 grain Hydra-Shok or Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip. I carried these .357 rounds where I might have to shoot a big dog or other dangerous animal.

A detective checked ME files for me to see how well that 145 grain ST worked in police shootings and those by FBI in our area. Both FBI and Dallas police issued that round to personnel carrying .357 ammo. He said it was grimly effective, almost too much so, whatever he meant by that. I'm less squeamish.

Your M-19 will probably only risk splitting the forcing cone if you fire the very hot 125 grain and lighter Magnum ammo, and similar very hot handloads. If you feel a need for this sort of ammo, get a GP-100 Ruger or L r N frame Smith and use it in moderation. I have seen photos on both Ruger boards of GP-100 forcing cones that were very badly eroded by use of this very high velocity, light bullet ammo. There is a trite saying that Rugers are built like tanks. Not so. They endure longer than S&W guns in heavy use, but you can wear out any revolver if you really go at it!

Your M-19 will fare well with 158 grain bullets, in reasonable use. The designer of the gun, Bill Jordan, told me personally that he envisioned firing full .357 ammo in them just about 10-15% of the time. Be guided accordingly.

 

[crazyphil]

Your 1979 Model 19 would be a dash 4. I have a 19-4 and have always
used standard pressure wadcutters for practice and carry 125-Gr.
Remington Golden Sabers for business. I think the cracked forcing cone
problems got a lot more bad press than they deserved, but it's better
to be safe than sorry. I would recommend the same practice for the
model 60s. As mentioned previously, you have good choices for both
the revolvers and the ammo.

 

[ABPOS]

ABPOS: Both of the Model 60s were purchased 7-16-1988. I called S&W this week with the serial numbers and they told me the production dates were 1-4-1988 and 5-31-1988. The barrels of both guns just says .38 special. When you read the info on the +p ammunition in the S&W “Instructions for Use” the manuals says: “Some .38 Special ammunition is being manufactured to specifically meet US Treasury Department specifications for a more powerful cartridge. This so-called “Plus-P-Plus” or “Plus-Plus-P” ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of industry standards and in excess of the pressures associated with commercial-available ammunition.”


Then it goes on to say what I typed above: In the case of Smith & Wesson handguns ......

When you read the explanation in the S&W instruction manual it almost sounds like they did not believe this type of ammo would become the industry norm. Nevertheless, they said if your handgun was made after 1958 and the model number appeared in the yoke, you could shoot the +p rounds. I guess they started putting the +p on the barrel once they realized it would become the industry norm.

Well, it looks like they were referring specifically to +p+ or ++p. Not just normal ole +p. Plus some of the guys in another thread I started said that a long time ago, normal saami .38 special pressure was higher than it is now. So the older guns were made to shoot hotter ammo than what is SAAMI standard now. I forgot when they said they did it, but saami dropped the pressures somewhere along the way for vanilla .38 special. Which it seemed like what they were saying is that normal .38 special used to be more like +p is now. If you get what I mean....

All of the info does seem to support that at least a limited amount of +p's in your 60's is probably way fine. But to be safe you can practice mostly with just vanilla .38's. My guess is they'd be fine with a steady diet of it, but don't take my word for it. I'm no expert.

 

[sheepdawg]

For defense or carry the 135 gr. Speer for short barrels is a fine load. Why not keep it simple and use it In the 19 and the 60s.

K frame magnums will digest any 38+P load with no problems. As far as a magnum load only 158 gr. 357s are recommended.

 

[Texas Star]

I don't believe that story about .38 Special ammo once being hotter. I think they just changed the way velocity is measured.

The older, longer solid pressure barrel gave way to four-inch vent barrels. Naturally , velocity seemed to have dropped.

 

[NovaJoe]

Home defense? Gimme that $2-300 security style 12 Gauge or a full size semiauto in 9mm, 40, or 45.

Shoot the 19 at the range for fun.
38 +P short barrel loads for the snubbies.

... with night sights

 

[SRG]

The Gold Dot loads you listed are excellent self defense ammo and will cause no problems in your Model 19 and Model 60's.

 

[ABPOS]

I don't believe that story about .38 Special ammo once being hotter. I think they just changed the way velocity is measured.

The older, longer solid pressure barrel gave way to four-inch vent barrels. Naturally , velocity seemed to have dropped.

FWIW, it's not my story. Maybe I'm being remiss in re-sharing it. Cuz I don't know what the truth is. But I felt like there were more than 1 guys saying it. I do believe it was in my thread about 38/44's in the hand ejector 1896-1961 forum. Here's the thread. The guy stating it seems to know a thing or two....

So, I'm guessing you can shoot +p's in a 38/44

 

[Texas Star]

FWIW, it's not my story. Maybe I'm being remiss in re-sharing it. Cuz I don't know what the truth is. But I felt like there were more than 1 guys saying it. I do believe it was in my thread about 38/44's in the hand ejector 1896-1961 forum. Here's the thread. The guy stating it seems to know a thing or two....

So, I'm guessing you can shoot +p's in a 38/44

ABPOS-

I wasn't accusing you. That story has been circulated on several forums. I don't know who began it. But many read something on the Net, take it at face value, and repeat it.

It's best to read gun books and magazine articles by accredited authors rather than accept Internet posts. They can be very valuable, but you have to know the "expert" posting and know enough about guns to spot scam artists.

We have a member here who has sparred with me over the safety of using Plus P ammo in older .38's. He thinks it's fine and has done so in a M&P of late 1940's vintage. Writer Mike Venturino has also fired some Plus P in guns of that vintage.They didn't blow up, but I think wear is increased, and not all Plus P is loaded to the same levels.

I'm concerned that someone will read on the Net that Plus P is okay in older guns, and fire Buffalo Bore or Underwood ammo in a gun made about 1916 and come to grief.

Also, some older loading manuals published loads that are now deemed excessive.

Keep in mind that when the USAF wanted 9mm autos in the early 1980's, a prime reason was that their new Plus P ammo was shaking their S&W Model 15's loose too soon, and they were having to rebuild many.

Oh: I've been very impressed with your gun sketches.

Best,

OPOS (TX Star)

 

[michael1000]

well, i've got a couple cents worth here:
i was told by a LGS owner that K frames prefer 158 grain or larger bullets. this also has something to do with forcing cone damage, too. (i just don't know much about this)
he told me any reasonable load of powder in behind the 158s is good to go.
i don't know if his opinion is any better, but it kind of makes sense.

 

[rct269]

One upon a time, well within my lifetime, there were basically two store-bought loads available for .38 Specials---and one for .357's. Most everybody was happy with that----except perhaps for the folks who make the ammunition. They seem to have got to thinking about what might happen if they started making a whole bunch of different loads for the same caliber-----and then started telling the folks why they needed all these different loads----one for charging Chipmunks---another for enraged Gerbles---and so-on.

And that brings us to fishing tackle. I can pretty much guarantee the vast majority of folks you might ask are going to tell you fishing tackle is made to catch fish (and that ammunition is made to shoot). Then there are those who will tell you fishing tackle is made to sell to fishermen. These folks are those who've given the matter a little thought.

So here's to thinking------------------------

Ralph Tremaine

Oh---and there was no such thing as night sights---didn't seem to matter much.