19-3 cylinder open issue and hammer interference

Hi all,

This may belong in the gunsmithing forum...I wasn't sure so feel free to move if needed. Also...those are NOT live rounds in it. They are spent shell casings so the hammer doesn't fall on an empty cylinder.

First, I'm a newbie here and new owner of a 19-3. I usually am a slide gun fan, but this one seems like it will be fun to shoot. .

Only it's having a problem.

First, it's a 19-3, 6 inch barrel, and the previous owner said he removed the target hammer/trigger and replaced it with a Model 15, I believe. The narrower of the bunch (apparently there were three widths of hammer/triggers, so it appears to be the narrowest one).

To insure I did everything correctly, this was the video I watched before touching anything:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ujyLn3lHBc[/ame]

To be clear up front, I bought it knowing the problem existed, but I got a pretty good deal on it, and it does function, as I took it to the range.

First, the cylinder does not swing out when the thumb lever is pushed forward. I actually have to tap it out from the right side once I push the thumb release forward. Getting up close and personal with it, I discovered that the spring loaded pin in front of the ejector in the shroud is not going far enough back to release. A small plastic strip artificially pushing the pin back a little and the cylinder releases beautifully. How do I adjust this?

Second issue I noticed is that the thumb release seems to be just a hair too far forward, as it interferes with the hammer moving rearward when pulling the trigger. I discovered this after removing the side plate and attempting to pull the trigger. Another thread suggested some judicious file/stone work to smooth it down a bit, but can the thumb release be adjusted to bring it back enough to clear the hammer?

Lastly, perhaps it's just that it's a M15 hammer on an M19, but there seems to be a bit of binding where the sear contacts the hammer sometimes. Frequently, after pulling the trigger, the trigger does not return to forward position

Some notes:
I noticed the side plate was a bit ajar when I began to remove the screws (previous armorer I do not think did anything in this replacement process correctly) and removed the screws. Following the video one step at a time, I removed everthing, cleaned, lightly oiled, and replaced exactly as seen in the video (all the parts look the same).

Appreciate any help from the smiths out there
Mark

Well, for one, that looks like an old hammer. It's not working because it doesn't fit. You need a modern hammer and trigger.
The ejector rod is likely loose. Put those empties in the chambers and try to unscrew the rod by hand. (It goes the opposite of what's "normal" - righty-loosy, lefty-tighty.)
If you choose to do the replacement yourself (I've done a few - it's not too bad) get both trigger and hammer.
The previous owner was an idiot.

Generally, swapping the hammer and trigger together should fit. However, there may be just enough differences in the frames that the two parts no longer mesh perfectly. It looks like the foot of the sear may need to be shortened slightly.

Muley Gil said:

Generally, swapping the hammer and trigger together should fit. However, there may be just enough differences in the frames that the two parts no longer mesh perfectly. It looks like the foot of the sear may need to be shortened slightly.

Click to expand...

Gil, doesn't that look like a 1940s-vintage hammer? Or am I hallucinating from this Chinese Crud?

I'm beginning to get the sense that the previous owner (who was a decent guy who had an armorer do the work) may have been less than diligent with who did the work.

And just looking at what's here, the armorer was an idiot.

Looks like a vintage hammer spur to me!

Looks like a fishhook hammer!

GerSan69 said:

Well, for one, that looks like an old hammer. It's not working because it doesn't fit. You need a modern hammer and trigger.
The ejector rod is likely loose. Put those empties in the chambers and try to unscrew the rod by hand. (It goes the opposite of what's "normal" - righty-loosy, lefty-tighty.)
If you choose to do the replacement yourself (I've done a few - it's not too bad) get both trigger and hammer.
The previous owner was an idiot.

Click to expand...

So I took a look at the ejector rod. It's not loose. It's screwed all the way down and seated right at the mating surface of the other half of the extractor and still there is this much depth to the internal part. See pic.

When I push the pin in front (simulating activating the cylinder thumb release), there is still a lip (about 1 mm) which I suspect the spring loaded pin at the front of the shroud is hanging up on. In fact, that's exactly what's happening. So my next question is:

Which part do I replace or trim? The spring loaded pin at the front of the shroud that inserts into the ejector rod? Or do I replace the ejector rod because the center part (at the arrow in the pic) is too short? Or is there some sort of 3rd option I'm missing?

Thanks for all the help.

With the cylinder open, can you press on the front locking bolt (the pin in front of the ejector rod) with a punch or the end of a tooth brush handle, and get it to fully retract into the hole it protrudes from?

If not, or it feels like there's more than spring resistance, chances are there is a build up crud in that channel that is preventing the front bolt from retracting far enough to allow the ejector rod to unlatch.

I had that issue with a used 586 I bought, a good cleaning with an aerosol gun cleaner blasted loose a surprising amount of caked powder residue out of that bolt channel. Once cleaned, it fixed my cylinder release problem.

Don't mess with the front of the ejector rod, there needs to be a certain amount of engagement with the front locking bolt, and what you describe sounds normal.

SuperSapper said:

So I took a look at the ejector rod. It's not loose. It's screwed all the way down and seated right at the mating surface of the other half of the extractor and still there is this much depth to the internal part. See pic.

When I push the pin in front (simulating activating the cylinder thumb release), there is still a lip (about 1 mm) which I suspect the spring loaded pin at the front of the shroud is hanging up on. In fact, that's exactly what's happening. So my next question is:

Which part do I replace or trim? The spring loaded pin at the front of the shroud that inserts into the ejector rod? Or do I replace the ejector rod because the center part (at the arrow in the pic) is too short? Or is there some sort of 3rd option I'm missing?

Thanks for all the help.

Click to expand...

My pleasure.
I think Gunhacker has the most likely answer. Definitely worth a try, and you always want to rule out all non-destructive possibilities (that don't require cutting) first. I can say with a high degree of certainty trimming will not be needed.
Fishhook hammer! That's the name I couldn't remember earlier. Properly called the "Speed Hammer," it was used in the late 1940s - mid 1950s. Definitely the wrong one for your gun, as you have discovered. Try Ebay, Brownell's, Numrich, or any of the other gun parts web sites. My personal favorite, and one I've used before, is USA Guns and Gear, Smith and Wesson Revolver Parts & Pistol Parts For Sale – USA Guns And Gear-Your Favorite Gun Parts Store
Prompt service and I've always received good, clean parts from them. I really do suggest getting a trigger and hammer, BTW.
So there ya go. Too bad the seller was not too sharp on what he had, but you got a darn nice looking revolver out of the deal. And if you didn't pay too much, your additional outlay for parts won't sting so bad. Good luck!

One other possibility is that the center pin is too short. You can probably get a longer one and trim it to proper length.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

Gunhacker said:

With the cylinder open, can you press on the front locking bolt (the pin in front of the ejector rod) with a punch or the end of a tooth brush handle, and get it to fully retract into the hole it protrudes from?

If not, or it feels like there's more than spring resistance, chances are there is a build up crud in that channel that is preventing the front bolt from retracting far enough to allow the ejector rod to unlatch.

I had that issue with a used 586 I bought, a good cleaning with an aerosol gun cleaner blasted loose a surprising amount of caked powder residue out of that bolt channel. Once cleaned, it fixed my cylinder release problem.

Don't mess with the front of the ejector rod, there needs to be a certain amount of engagement with the front locking bolt, and what you describe sounds normal.

Click to expand...

I took the entire assembly apart and cleaned it very thoroughly. The ejector rod fully retracts easily, but when pushed back and sitting flush with the cylinder, there is a small lip at the rear of the ejector rod. It is as if the part inside the ejector rod that is pushed back when you push the cylinder release forward (to open the cylinder) is too short.

I can't imagine any reason to replace it. Do they get damaged by breaking off a part such that they are short and need to be replaced? It doesn't look damaged, even under a magnifying glass.

Since the hammer and trigger aren't original to the gun, is there any reason the rod inside would need to be replaced. I attached the pic again to show what we're talking about.

Mark

Something I noticed with a M15 Combat Masterpiece that I was considering locally: it was extremely difficult to release and swing out the cylinder. Finally, after many difficult open/close operations, as I inspected all the parts that affect the action, I noticed that the rear end (the part that is directly in contact with the thumb release) of the cylinder center pin was FLAT. Not sure how this came to be.. Every instance of my experiences with S&W revolvers reminded me that the center pin is radius, and just a tad longer. This is something to consider.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

SuperSapper said:

I took the entire assembly apart and cleaned it very thoroughly. The ejector rod fully retracts easily, but when pushed back and sitting flush with the cylinder, there is a small lip at the rear of the ejector rod. It is as if the part inside the ejector rod that is pushed back when you push the cylinder release forward (to open the cylinder) is too short.
I can't imagine any reason to replace it. Do they get damaged by breaking off a part such that they are short and need to be replaced? It doesn't look damaged, even under a magnifying glass.
Since the hammer and trigger aren't original to the gun, is there any reason the rod inside would need to be replaced. I attached the pic again to show what we're talking about. Mark

Click to expand...

You mentioned "a small lip at the rear of the ejector rod". I was wondering what you mean. Is there a sharp edge catching something, or ?
Please don't keep thinking that any part is "too short," "broken," or anything else. Damage in that area is almost always from abuse, so it's not something that will naturally occur. That also means it's rare.
Do you have a reputable gunsmith nearby that can advise you on this? Revolvers do have some somewhat complicated mechanisms in them, and unless you are thoroughly familiar, you can do more harm than good. As a "good Forum member," I want to see folks that come on here are able to enjoy their firearms, not get into a situation that costs them money needlessly.

The cylinder thumblatch and the rear of the hammer rubbing against the cylinder catch inside the action may be related, and may result in part from the previous owner trying to correct a problem, real or imagined, with the center pin.

The base of the cylinder thumblatch drops into a slot in the frame (left side) and is held in by a threaded nut. It has a certain amount of "meat" up front that stops its forward travel. The front of the thumblatch should not touch the recoil shield.

An easy starting point is to purchase a new thumblatch and drop it in. Then get the correct hammer and trigger.

FWIW, what you are referring to the "rear" is actually the front of the ejector rod and center pin. That inner steel rod is referred to as the center pin. This schematic helps alot:

Smith & Wesson 19-3 Revolver Parts, Schematics | Numrich Gun Parts

Check out the hammers and triggers listed.

GerSan69 said:

You mentioned "a small lip at the rear of the ejector rod". I was wondering what you mean. Is there a sharp edge catching something, or ?
Please don't keep thinking that any part is "too short," "broken," or anything else. Damage in that area is almost always from abuse, so it's not something that will naturally occur. That also means it's rare.
Do you have a reputable gunsmith nearby that can advise you on this? Revolvers do have some somewhat complicated mechanisms in them, and unless you are thoroughly familiar, you can do more harm than good. As a "good Forum member," I want to see folks that come on here are able to enjoy their firearms, not get into a situation that costs them money needlessly.

Click to expand...

I think he's referring to the center pin and has his "rear" and "front" sdrawkcab.....

You have a really nice looking Mod 19 there. Could be the previous owner's gunsmith was a fair hammer mechanic but not ready to work on a precision device, like your revolver. There may be a multiplicity of problems with the revolver to deal with. I suspect several misfit parts in the mix. Rather than try to fight fixing it yourself, I'd suggest finding a competent gunsmith who regularly DOES work on S&W revolvers.

SuperSapper said:

I took the entire assembly apart and cleaned it very thoroughly. The ejector rod fully retracts easily, but when pushed back and sitting flush with the cylinder, there is a small lip at the rear of the ejector rod. It is as if the part inside the ejector rod that is pushed back when you push the cylinder release forward (to open the cylinder) is too short.

I can't imagine any reason to replace it. Do they get damaged by breaking off a part such that they are short and need to be replaced? It doesn't look damaged, even under a magnifying glass.

Since the hammer and trigger aren't original to the gun, is there any reason the rod inside would need to be replaced. I attached the pic again to show what we're talking about.

Mark

Click to expand...

That is normal in that picture, and that is the front of the ejector rod, not the back.

You took which assembly apart??

Did you check the front locking bolt (red pointer in below pic) for free movement?

Study this pic closely, the spring loaded pin (locking bolt) that I'm pointing to, the end of that pin fits into the end of the ejector rod to lock it in place when the cylinder is closed.

The center pin in the ejector rod that you think looks short, it needs to be that way so there is room for the locking bolt (pin) to fit into the end of the ejector rod.

Gunhacker said:

That is normal in that picture, and that is the front of the ejector rod, not the back.

You took which assembly apart?? the entire ejector rod, cylinder, center pin and extractor

Did you check the front locking bolt (red pointer in below pic) for free movement? It resists quite a bit, but does not retract from the ejector rod far enough to release the cylinder

Study this pic closely, the spring loaded pin (locking bolt) that I'm pointing to, the end of that pin fits into the end of the ejector rod to lock it in place when the cylinder is closed.

The center pin in the ejector rod that you think looks short, it needs to be that way so there is room for the locking bolt (pin) to fit into the end of the ejector rod. Understood, but the locking bolt is not going far enough back to release the ejector rod

Click to expand...

Yes. I checked that. The issue is that the "locking bolt" does not retract far enough to release the ejector rod when I push the thumb release. I used a very small jeweler's type screwdriver to push the locking bolt forward and at the same time pushed the thumb release to open the cylinder. When I did both of these things, it opened easily.

I got to that point because I noticed there was absolutely NOTHING holding the cylinder in once the thumb release was pushed. I noticed that it was hanging up at the rear of the ejector rod where the locking bolt inserts (right at the red arrow). What would cause the locking bolt to hang up where it meets/inserts into the ejector rod?

Oh...BTW. Maybe I have it backwards, but I use the shooter as the reference point, not the pistol; the "front" of the center pin is toward the shooter (where you load the cartridges) and "rear" is away from the shooter, toward the shroud where the locking bolt is.

How do I upload a video clip here? I'll see if I can do so

minconrevo said:

You have a really nice looking Mod 19 there. Could be the previous owner's gunsmith was a fair hammer mechanic but not ready to work on a precision device, like your revolver. There may be a multiplicity of problems with the revolver to deal with. I suspect several misfit parts in the mix. Rather than try to fight fixing it yourself, I'd suggest finding a competent gunsmith who regularly DOES work on S&W revolvers.

Click to expand...

There do not seem to be any competent smiths here in San Diego that know enough about the older revolvers. Does anyone know someone here in San Diego?