Mole Patrol - S&W M36-1 3" HB SB to NYPD/Transit

One of the guns that I am doing a little project on is the S&W Model 36-1 3" HB SB as used by the New York City Police Department.


From 1967 to 1973 the Department acquired about 1,600 or so of these guns with an eye towards their use by Policewomen.


When the position of Policewoman was done away with in 1973 and women were folded into the Patrol force, the 3" M36-1's sort of languished in the Equipment Bureau, as most of the new female hires went to Model 10's (although the M36-1 was still an option).


I already have an M36-1 in my collection, but it was a gun sold to a police surgeon (Yea, if you were a cop doc you got a piece!). I've been trying to find one that actually went to a Policewoman.


Well, another M36-1 crossed my path and even though it turns out not to have gone to a Policewoman, I figured I'd do a Two-Bit Cowboy and round up this stray and put it in my collection/herd.


So, the owner and I hemmed, we hawed, we did the little dance and voila!









Smith & Wesson M36-1 HB SB s/n J782805.


Not a bad looking gun; seems in decent shape. Nice case color on the hammer. Great bore. A couple minor freckles on the cylinder that are only really visible under bright light. Pretty decent.


Let's pull up my notes and see what we have:




All righty….. lets see……. There is an entry for the gun that the record for it is located in Book 75 p. 284. BLANK means that the date of the sale is not listed.


In the old days I would then hop over to the Magical Filing Cabinet Of Documents I Wasn't Supposed To Copy And Take Out Of HQ but nowadays I just pull up the scanned versions and my butt never has to leave my swivel chair (BTW, if someone –really—appreciates the data I send them, I could use one of those high end swivel chairs; they're great!).


So I zip over to page 284 and find this:


(note that the Fire Marshalls usually got their piece through the Equipment Bureau; a few non-NYPD folks got their guns this way)


Scan down the page a wee bit and:




There we go…… Equipment Bureau #E108, s/n J782805 was sold to William M. JUDGE, Shield #2634 and his Command is listed as TP SCU which I believe is Transit Police (Mole Patrol!) Street Crimes Unit.


Not a Policewomans gun but still a nice catch. Mole Patrol in the 1970's was a tough gig; you think a Day Tour topside was tough back then, the subway was just as bad and smelled worse.



Ah, 1970's Transit….the smell of stale urine in the summertime, leather patrol jackets and -epic- pornstar mustaches!! The leather jackets weren't around too long; gave off a 'street gang' vibe, or so the story went. I remember the trains looking like that. This image, based on the classic Newport ad that was on almost every subway car and the young womans outfit suggests early-mid 1980's but there isn't much difference between this rolling can of bad attitude and misjudgement and the ones of the 1970's. And the 'staches still rock!


So, another little addition to my collection. The fellow I got this fom has a hook for ex-Job guns, so maybe him and I can work something out in the future.


Best,
RM Vivas

That's very cool stuff there Robert! Thanks for the interesting info.

I was fortunate enough back in June, with much thanks to NCBeagle (Ryan- who turned me onto the gun!) and Relic Hunter 451 (John, who was selling), to score a 3" NYPD 36-1 that has actually been lettered by Robert. Roy has it shipping to a Big Police Agency in January of 1981. Here's some pictures and the entry in the database which is maintained by two-bit cowboy as well as a description by John.

My favorites, guys. Thanks for sharing them and their stories.

Thanks to the screenshot I cleaned up the database a wee bit, too. Thank you.

I think the original street crime unit was part of the Tatical Patrol Force. I don't know if Transit had a SCU

shamuscull said:

I think the original street crime unit was part of the Tatical Patrol Force. I don't know if Transit had a SCU

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I knew SCU was part of the TPF but I --think-- Transit had one as well.

As the orphan red headed stepchild of NYPD, Transit was never really high on my radar. Maybe there is a subterranean dinosaur on here who can help.

Best,
RM Vivas

Just great! The piece, history, and research.

Rudi said:

Just great! The piece, history, and research.

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And the mustaches. The leather jackets tie it all together. WE BAD.

Ah, the tagger practice room. Great stuff

Excellent post, as usual, Mr. Vivas. Did the policewomen carry their guns in these holster purses?

Smith & Wesson M36-1 HB SB was very common police revolver in Finland 1970's - 1990's.
Another model was 13 3".

Finnish police & 36-1 in year 1981


In the revolver era, polices used here also leather jackets

Not really related, just memories, as a child in the late 40's remember our next door neighbor was a Transit Ptl. and in the 60's I became friendly with a Transit Det. who spent much of his time upstairs. The NYC Mayor was Transit PO in the mid-80's, but don't know about his service weapon. The Sanitation Police were issued Model 10's for on-duty carry only.

Model 36-1 in Finnish police issued holsters from 1970's to 1990's

gunbarrel said:

Excellent post, as usual, Mr. Vivas. Did the policewomen carry their guns in these holster purses?

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An excellent question and one that I am actually hoping to speak on at next years SWCA Symposium with a presentation called The Fairest of The Finest.


Anyway, really quick, Policewomen as we know them today (as a product of the Policewomens Bureau (PWB)) were on outgrowth of the WW1-era Womens Police Reserve and the NYPD Police Matrons. There is a very long and convoluted political background but when it comes to female cops you basically had Policewomen, Patrolwomen and Matrons.


By the mid-1930's the issue was resolved and Policewomen came to be. Their early uniforms were spectacularly dowdy and while they could technically be armed, there was no real provision for arming them.


By WW2 we see what I call the Type 1 PW purse. It was an over the shoulder black bag with a flap that covered a holsterd .32HE and a memo/summons book. Supposedly the first ones were donated by a major make-up company and came with a department issued make-up kit.


SPRING 3100 did a tongue-in-cheek comparison of the PW on-duty purse versus the off-duty purse:




Notice that this is the Type 1 purse. The primary distinction between the type 1 and the Type 2 is the Type 1 had a memo book pouch and the holster was sized for a .32HE while the Type 2 had a cuff pouch and was sized for the m36-1 3" HB RB.






The construction of the Type 2 is also a bit heavier. I believe the Type 2's were made by Jay-Pee but don't recall. I have one in my collection, so I'll have to go check.


Here's a shot of some rather attractive PW's around 1960 or so.





I love the little kitten heels and white gloves. Notice the collar devices marked PWB (Policewomens Bureau). The second most female populated command was the JAB (Juvenile Aid Bureau); so much so that the two were often synonymous with each other.


By the late 1960's the purse was again being upgraded, this time to a more pouch/bag configuration.



I suspect that this purse was evaluated but never adopted because Policewomen were phased out in1973. This image is likely 1972-1973, as she still has PWB collar brass but she has the new Department patch that came out in 1972-1973. By 1973, the PWB was done away with, as was the gender specific title of Policewoman and Patrolman. The unisex title of Police Officer came into being and the women were folded into the Tactical Patrol Force. It was at this time that the women were also authorized trousers and the skirts were done way with


There is a marvelous quote from LaGuardia when he was at a graduation exercise for new Policewoman during WW2. Never one to encourage reticence in the use of one's duty weapon he admonished the new PW's to "…use you revolver like you would use your lipstick; sparingly and only when needed…".



Best,
RM Vivas

S&WshooterFIN said:

Model 36-1 in Finnish police issued holsters from 1970's to 1990's

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*
The bottom one looks like a j frame variant of the the first level III holster, the Safariland 070. I do not recall ever seeing such listed in the catalogs of the day.
I have a few for different pistols, including what I was told was the first made for a commander size 1911, and one for a 4" N frame, my first duty weapon. I sometimes wish I had one for a 4" K frame. I could draw pretty quickly from the secured holster, but putting away the pistols to go hands on was not near as fast.

Doug M. said:

*
The bottom one looks like a j frame variant of the the first level III holster, the Safariland 070. I do not recall ever seeing such listed in the catalogs of the day.
I have a few for different pistols, including what I was told was the first made for a commander size 1911, and one for a 4" N frame, my first duty weapon. I sometimes wish I had one for a 4" K frame. I could draw pretty quickly from the secured holster, but putting away the pistols to go hands on was not near as fast.

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It's Hellweg #2003 for S&W J-frame 3"
Made in Ausralia.
Finnish police used Hellweg holsters before changed to Safariland holsters.

Thank you, Mr. Vivas! Very interesting. Looking forward to your presentation in next year's symposium.

Excellent and informative Mr. Vivas! I appreciate everyone who shared information on the Policewomen's Bureau. Didn't know that existed. I was born and raised in NYC in the '60's & '70 and can't remember seeing any policewomen.

In 78 I was in 1PP for Special Ptl. processing and there were a few gals tucked away in offices. Don't recall about how many were out on the street by then but the Pcts had them in offices before they started hiring civilians to do the jobs. and am sure some were driving Bosses.

tripledipper said:

In 78 I was in 1PP for Special Ptl. processing and there were a few gals tucked away in offices. Don't recall about how many were out on the street by then but the Pcts had them in offices before they started hiring civilians to do the jobs. and am sure some were driving Bosses.

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There are some pretty good newspaper articles from when women were folded into the TPF and the upshot was that while they were technically supposed to be on patrol, they usually wound up doing 'womens work' in the station. Phones, clerical, etc.

I was at a Women In Policing seminar at 1PP in the mid 1990's and was introduced to Helen Knedlhans, who was the first woman to join ESU. She had either just retired or was about to, and had come by for the presentation. Had some great stories and funny commentray on what it was like being the first woman on an all male unit.

With the (admittedly slow) rise in popularity of the "Murse" (Man Purse) I wonder if I could carry one of those with a J frame inside? NAAH, all the tough guys would laugh at me!
Froggie