Staging the trigger re-visited

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Joker18

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The subject of staging the trigger came up in a post several weeks ago (or more).
While perusing the manual that came with my 642-2, I noticed that Smith and Wesson does indeed warn against the practice of staging the trigger.
Maybe what I think of staging the trigger and what Smith and Wesson considers staging the trigger are two different things.
I believe it was mentioned in the past thread about this practice that staging had the potential to compromise the revolver's timing.
I think I may have commented about this on the past thread, but in my LEO days when we used Model 19's and afterward the 686, we were trained to fire double action only. We were also taught to shoot using controlled fire by what I suppose is staging the trigger.
We were instructed to pull the trigger rearward until the tip of our trigger finger just touched the trigger guard. Then make any final adjustments to the sight picture and the remaining trigger pull was light and allowed for a more accurate shot.
I use the same procedure for my 642 and I obtain good shot placement at least to 15 yards because that's as far as I have shot it to date.
I checked this procedure with my 642 empty and noticed that the cylinder locks up to the cylinder stop well before my trigger finger contacts the trigger guard (same as for the Model 19 and 686).
My question to Smith and Wesson then is how is this not a good practice? I ask with the caveat that the aforementioned procedure is only used when the shooter is actively firing the weapon at an intended target.
Any ideas?
 
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Is this squeezing the trigger and holding it at the point just before the hammer falls? I can do that with my 586 and it's smooth as glass trigger.
 
This is more common with Ruger DA revolvers, it is a common practice to stage the trigger on a Six series or GP100.

I have never staged the trigger on a S&W, I just aim and pull straight through.
 
Since Smiths don't have much of a stacking problem, like Colts, so I've never staged or seen the need for staging a Smith revolver. I just concentrate on pulling the trigger all the way through as smoothly as possible until the break.
 
On a properly timed S&W revolver the cylinder will index well before the hammer drops. While shooting double action I bring the trigger back to this point and once sure my sights are were I want them I then complete the cycle. This makes for super accurate double action shooting. But as a caveat I practise a lot with an empty revolver. After awhile this method become second nature. S&W probably recommends not doing this as a safety measure because it is easy to let one go if not careful. If you check out any of my YouTube videos you will see the cylinder index and lock before I drop the hammer. If you do practise this method say in the comfort of your home always, always, always be sure your revolver is unloaded because sometimes if you're going fast the hammer will fall. Some S&W revolvers you can't do this with depending on who did the final fitting at the factory. All will index the cylinder before the hammer drops but some will do so just slightly before the hammer falls. With those revolvers staging could definately be dangerous and therefore not recommended. Be careful out there and remember safety first.
 
In S&W revolvers the cylinder indexes before the hammer starts to drop. With Colt revolvers the cylinder indexes virtually at the same time as the hammer falls. In shooting S&W evolvers DA I pull straight through.
 
I really don't understand the reasoning why staging the trigger is a bad thing either. There was some mention of this on a post about the galling of the cylinder at the cylinder stops that some suggested was caused by staging the trigger. I admit I have staged the trigger when really trying to get a good target group DA but may have to get myself to quit doing that if it is bad or it is a bad habit I am developing target shooting and don't want to take into my outdoor bear defense shooting.
 
team sidewinder said:
I admit I have staged the trigger when really trying to get a good target group DA but may have to get myself to quit doing that if it is bad or it is a bad habit I am developing target shooting and don't want to take into my outdoor bear defense shooting.
Click to expand...

I personally think staging is a bad habit to get into. The only purpose it serves is getting a good score on paper at the range. In a real life SD situation, hesitating or stopping to concentrating on an ingrained staging habit can get you killed. :( JMHO
 
Staging is not for everyone or every situation and employing it depends a lot on the skill of the shooter. In most SD encounters you won't even be able to use your sights which would negate any accuracy advantage attained by staging. Staging is useful like stated above for pinpoint accuracy on a target range or bowling pin competition. I've used it while taking small game and in competition. Again it's not for everyone and only use the type of trigger control you're comfortable with. Years ago prior to police departments transitioning to semi autos many departments would allow double action only revolvers. My department allowed DA/SA revolvers but emphazied DA shooting. Some instructors taught staging for those of us with S&Ws, but only where pinpoint accuracy was needed. I know of two instances were officers used the staging DA method successfully, number one because they had the time to use their sights, and number two because great accuracy was required.
I practise using both staging and a complete single motion pull and I'm comfortable and proficient with both methods. However you choose to employ double action trigger control I recommend doing what works best for you and practise a lot.
 
The "Safety & Instruction Manual" also warns on page 19 in bold red print:

WARNING: THE REVOLVER WILL FIRE IF THE TRIGGER IS PULLED!

:rolleyes:


On the next page it discusses staging. It doesn't mention anything about harming the mechanism. It says that staging "violates a basic rule of firearm safety which warns you to keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you have made the commitment to fire." It warns that you could have an unintentional discharge, not that you could harm the mechanism or timing.
 
staging

I read that warning in the handbook for my new 686 and felt it was there NOT as a protection for the gun. But a gun firing safety issue. I think they (S&W) are covering themselves in case you have the trigger pulled back to cylinder lock but dont fire the gun, then you take the gun off target and end up shooting something you didnt intend to shoot.

As long as you are concentrating on the shot, the gun stays on the target and you squeeze until the click of the cylinder lock refocus and then fire, you are not going to hurt the gun or anything else for that matter. I have seen videos of dimwits that I would NOT suggest they try this technique!
 
diamonback68 said:
I personally think staging is a bad habit to get into. The only purpose it serves is getting a good score on paper at the range. In a real life SD situation, hesitating or stopping to concentrating on an ingrained staging habit can get you killed. :( JMHO
Click to expand...

I somewhat agree with you, but conversely missing the target can also get one killed. Now if a criminal has skills like Jerry Miculek, it may not matter how fast one is. I remember something I heard during a LEO firearms class that the majority of armed thugs have poor to mediocre firearms skills. I can get off 5 well aimed shots with my 642 (staging the trigger) in about 10-12 seconds. The time could be shorter, but recoil recovery eats up some of the time.
I think you touched on the secret of staging the trigger. It has to be practiced until one can do it without thinking about it. Of course one shouldn't use it in a SD situation while one is just learning it.
 
It is my experience that all revolvers are different, and that it is important for me to know the breaking point, and what it feels like, in any gun I am going to depend on. Starting very slowly to pull through the firing cycle, and gradually adding speed as I become accustomed to each gun is important to me. I am not an "expert" double action shooter, but I am definitely better with some guns than others. Those that have had S&W action jobs seem to translate what is going on to me better than others. This would include my 629 no dash that, for all intents and purposes, has a S&W action job that they didn't need to be sent back to get! The Taurus double action, especially the one on my model 441, is the best suited double out of the box for me. The stroke is shorter, with little stacking, or space for any. I can shoot any Taurus of the 3 I have more accurately with a consistant pull through double action shot than anything else; the difference is very obvious. Flapjack.
 
diamonback68 said:
I personally think staging is a bad habit to get into. The only purpose it serves is getting a good score on paper at the range. In a real life SD situation, hesitating or stopping to concentrating on an ingrained staging habit can get you killed. :( JMHO
Click to expand...


THIS is why staging the trigger is a bad habit to fall into. If I'm shooting in double action I'm just not concerned with pinpoint accuracy, what I am concerned with is acceptable accuracy and an acceptable rate of fire. Depending on how much range time I've been able to put in, that can range from 6 inches at 15 yards with a 1/2 second split down to 4 inches at 15 yards with a 0.3 second split. While my targets may not be pretty, that's good enough to do the job if I ever need to defend myself.

Personally, IMO if you want to shoot groups to impress, shoot in single action. Granted, that's not possible with a revolver that features an enclosed hammer, however these are revolvers designed specifically for Defense and you really should train how you might have to shoot them.
 
Thanks guys for shedding light on the staging the trigger. Always nice to hear the voice of experienced shooters.
 
With practice, I have been able to shoot tight groups at 25+ yards with my DAO revolvers.

I tended to start using SA as a "crutch" on off days at the range, so I found DAO guns to be a great training tool.

No staging, I just get a good sight picture and just pull the trigger through.

If you were to use your revolver for self defense, trust me you wouldn't be worried about staging any trigger.
 
scooter123 said:
THIS is why staging the trigger is a bad habit to fall into. If I'm shooting in double action I'm just not concerned with pinpoint accuracy, what I am concerned with is acceptable accuracy and an acceptable rate of fire. Depending on how much range time I've been able to put in, that can range from 6 inches at 15 yards with a 1/2 second split down to 4 inches at 15 yards with a 0.3 second split. While my targets may not be pretty, that's good enough to do the job if I ever need to defend myself.

Personally, IMO if you want to shoot groups to impress, shoot in single action. Granted, that's not possible with a revolver that features an enclosed hammer, however these are revolvers designed specifically for Defense and you really should train how you might have to shoot them.
Click to expand...


Excellent!
 
Last edited:
I believe the key to goode double action shooting is a smooth pull front to back, while maintaining good sight picture. Staging, pulling strongly, then slowing down for the final let off, tends to react like a "jerk" in single action shooting. Shooter gets toward the end of the pull, slows down, finalizes the sight picture then jerks the shot. On the other hand, trying to shoot the double action slowly results in starts and stops which moves the front sight off target and makes for difficult shooting. On the opposite end, some folks obtain the sight picture, then snatch the trigger in double action!! This makes for a rather large size group, as you might imagine. Trigger snatching is very hard to cure.

So, in between the too slow and snatching, is the smooth medium speed front to back same speed trigger stroke that makes for good accurate shooting. People like Jerry Michulak (sp) do not snatch the trigger. The have a smooth stroke at a very fast pace, and through practice, can maintain very good accuracy.

There are some folks that are very good at staging the trigger for accuracy. This is a developed fine motor skill that will disappear in a combat situation when all fine motor skills go south. Work on developing a smooth trigger pull.
 
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