Model 620 vs Model 66-8 - abject failure vs home run

shinbone

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When S&W originally discontinued the 6-shot K-framed Model 66 in 2005 with the 66-07 being the final engineering change at that time, it was ostensibly replaced by the Model 620 in the same year.

Smith & Wesson Model 619 & 620 - Wikipedia

Smith & Wesson Model 19 - Wikipedia

The M620 was a 7-shot, L-frame gun having a 4", half-lug, "non-compromised" forcing cone, two-piece barrel praised for its accuracy. Despite the accurate shooting, the 620 was a major face-plant by S&W, and lasted only a few years before it, too, was discontinued. It seems suspicion/controversy over the durability of the relatively-new-to-S&W two-piece barrel was the primary reason the new gun was not accepted by the S&W community.

I've got a 620, and I love it - super accurate, good balance, functions perfect, lots of fun to shoot. While .357Mag L-frames are absolutely fantastic guns, personally, I am not a fan of the overwhelmingly ubiquitous full-lug 686 guns. The aesthetics and balance of that full-lug just don't fit my ideas of what makes a great revolver. Obviously, this is JMHO, but I know there are many others who feel the same. I know not all 686's have a full lug, but half-lug 686's are not common and go for a high price when they do go on the market. (I know, because a 686 Mountain Gun, which has a half-lug, burned a big hole in my gun budget when it came up on Gunbroker). In my mind, the half-lug 620 solves this quite substantial flaw of the 686. In other words, not only is the 620 a very worthy replacement for the 66, but for the large number of half-lug lovers, it is a better gun than the highly popular 686. And that is saying a lot! But, still, no love for the 620!?

Fast forward to 2014, and S&W has released the 66-8, which is a revamped 6-shot K-frame gun with a 4.25", half-lug, "non-compromised" forcing cone, two-piece barrel being praised for its accuracy, i.e. it is very similar to the soundly rejected 620, however, the 66-8 is getting almost universal high praise from the S&W community.

Why the different treatment of what are very similar guns? Is the two-piece-barrel design of the 66-8 really all that better than that of the 620? Or, has the S&W community simply grown to accept two-piece barrels as maybe not all that bad, after all? Or, is this yet another example of S&W management making only a limited number of guns that the S&W community really really likes? (For a recent example of this odd and self-impairing product management behavior, check the 617 Mountain Gun). Or, some other reasons at play, here? Finally, maybe the success of the new 66-8 will cause a re-discovery of the forgotten 620 and its fine attributes?


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The L-frame oddities of 2005 were probably the best revolvers S&W designed in the last 20+ years. I too have have a 620. The internals are so smoth it reliably accepted a wolf 12# rebound spring. It's easily the most accurate revolver in my safes. That is to say it out shoots all of my 27's and 29's from the late 1950's onward. They shoot so well I bought myself a second one in the box just incase anything happens to my primary. Jeff at gunblast is the only person that did the gun justice in a review. He quatified the accuracy potential for the readers.

Smith & Wesson Models 619 and 620 .357 Magnum Revolvers

It will be interesting to see how the market treats these guns in the future. The 620 used to get done for a song on gunbroker....as in less than $600 delivered. I've now seen them sell for just under $900. Heck a 619 finished up yesterday at $880 (first I had seen in almost two years).

The 620 is an ejector shroud 686. A 619 is a seven shot 65 without the weak link forcing cone. The 520 is a light weight 620 with Hi-Viz sights. Why would you not want one of these? Since the two piece barrel is more accepted now, it would be nice to see all three reintroduced in the 2.75" format that we have very recently seen for the 66 and 69.

It's very puzzling to me that ejector shroud guns have basically been replaced by full lug variants. The market is still quite ripe for ejector shroud weight and balance guns as you have pointed out. While I have Mountain Guns, I have refused to pay the premium of the 686 MG. I couldn't justify it with low hanging fruit laying around like the 620 @ sub $600. In regards to the 617 Mountain Gun, it's simply amazing to me Smith didn't call it what it is, which is a 618, and add it to the regular production line up. Seemingly a no-brainer. If it's too expensive, stop drilling the extra four chambers in the cylinder that I don't want to clean anyway.....

I think the 620 failed because the two piece barrel concept was new, different, and the engineering was misunderstood by the market. I think it might have enjoyed more success being marketed as a 686 variant rather than competing with the well established model line. If the new 66-8 was called something less famous and respected than a Model 66, it would probably be a hard start with its new fangled barrel. You could say "not so, just look at the 69", but the 69 is a .44. From what I've seen .44's sell themselves, especially the smaller varieties.
 
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Jeff at gunblast is the only person that did the gun justice in a review. He quantified the accuracy potential for the readers.

Good points, SLT223. The article you linked shows some 25yd 5-shot groups by the 620 and 619 going close to 1/2" (shot from a mechanical rest). Pretty darn amazing for a handgun. With that kind of accuracy, hard to imagine that people shied away cause the barrel design was different. Gun cranks sure hate change, I guess.


1Mvc-022f.jpg



2Mvc-019f.jpg






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Nothing wrong with the guns, they just happened along at the time when law enforcement was leaving the revolver market in droves for hi-capacity 9 mm pistols. With the passage of 15-20 years and some hindsight we can appreciate them more now :).
 
Nothing wrong with the guns, they just happened along at the time when law enforcement was leaving the revolver market in droves for hi-capacity 9 mm pistols. With the passage of 15-20 years and some hindsight we can appreciate them more now :).

IIRC, there were some whispers/rumors about bbls shooting loose. Any truth to them?

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
 
IIRC, there were some whispers/rumors about bbls shooting loose. Any truth to them?

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I heard that rumor. Something about Oklahoma State Police trials....

I have many thousand rounds down the pipe of all bullets types and velocities. No such issues. The engineering is not predisposed to such trouble. It gets torqued down just like a one piece barrel. Heck S&W still uses the same 620 type barrel system on the current 64's.
 
I'm another 620 lover. Put a 1.75 X Nikon handgun scope on mine and after practicing twice a week for 6 weeks managed the following target with the last 7 rounds I had on that day. Note, shot 3 then snatched the trigger for the single way rignt, returned to the original group for # 4 and then shot the double to the right. When I got home and started to remove the scope I found the rear mount had shot loose and that is the likely cause for that double on the right. BTW, I learned that even when shooting from a rest getting a result like this is not nearly as easy as I thought it would be. Because ANY tiny flaw in trigger technique or recoil management shows up as a flyer.

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And the 620 with that scope attached.

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Nothing wrong with the guns, they just happened along at the time when law enforcement was leaving the revolver market in droves for hi-capacity 9 mm pistols. With the passage of 15-20 years and some hindsight we can appreciate them more now :).

In 2005? Weren't all PD's pretty much transferred off revolvers by then? The 686 didn't seem to suffer at any point regardless of what law enforcement was buying. The 620 is 11 years old.... Most don't know they exist despite their advantages. I feel like that's evidence of a marketing failure.
 
I just never cared for the seven shooters all that much. Still don't. But a six shot version I likely would have purchased.
 
The 7 shooter does take some time to get used two, for me it's about 1/2 box downrange before I stop opening the cylinder and dumping one live round with the empties into my hand.
 
I heard that rumor. Something about Oklahoma State Police trials....

I have many thousand rounds down the pipe of all bullets types and velocities. No such issues. The engineering is not predisposed to such trouble. It gets torqued down just like a one piece barrel. Heck S&W still uses the same 620 type barrel system on the current 64's.


Had the barrel issue personally. Quality control issue? maybe but here is the rub...Its not like 1 single barrel was made with such crappy potted metal issues, it had to be a batch...how many 620/619s out there have barrels from that batch, that is what's scary

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...75-repost-2-piece-barrel-came-apart-pics.html

If the mountain gun/half lug is in such demand, doesn't it seem like a S/W would do the smart thing and...produce more of that product? i.e. produce more 686 half lugs? I liked the pistol, it felt good, was lighter than the 686 but not too light for hotter loads but I think S/W was learning with the 620 and I did not want to be a part of their trial and error so they replaced the 620 with a 686+ at no charge up.
If your 620 shoots great and is accurate, good, but unfortunately it was not my experience.
Now I understand why the 686 is a major staple in the S/W inventory. Shoots good, built like a magnum should be built, 7 shots, gunsmith friendly, lots of aftermarket parts, but most of all, solid proven design. Would I like a 1/2 lug 686...you betcha
 
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Had the barrel issue personally. Quality control issue? maybe but here is the rub...Its not like 1 single barrel was made with such crappy potted metal issues, it had to be a batch...how many 620/619s out there have barrels from that batch, that is what's scary

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...75-repost-2-piece-barrel-came-apart-pics.html

If the mountain gun/half lug is in such demand, doesn't it seem like a S/W would do the smart thing and...produce more of that product? i.e. produce more 686 half lugs?

No I don't think Smith would do that. They clearly have other guns they want to introduce with their manufacturing capacity other than Mountain Gun types which did sell well for years. I think that has more to do with competing on an innovative level with other manufacturers than looking to the past...even if there's still market for past products. I don't think this is unique to the firearms industry.

It looks to me like your barrel was over torqued and the end snapped off? Definitely has happened with standard L frame crush fit barrels, only they break at the shoulder. One member here had his 686 barrel go down range. My point is the engineering is not predisposed to such failure just like standard crush fit barrels are not....when they are set up correctly.
 
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I have a 66-7 and love it. Most accurate .357 I've ever owned and I've owned a bunch.

I don't do any hunting these days but a longer-barreled 620 sure would make a nice gun for field pistol silhouette.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Had the barrel issue personally. . . .

Thanks for the link to your previous thread. I have seen that thread before, and it would be very disappointing to have a new gun completely fail like that. Your experience is the only documented barrel failure I have seen for a 620, though. I am not sure what happened in your case, but it sounds like the gun had problems from the factory. And, while it sux when it is your gun that fails, I would bet every single S&W model has had some major failures, so I am not sure if it is fair to throw out the entire model line based on a few early failures. Admittedly, if it happened to me, I, too, would be soured on that particular model.
 
If the mountain gun/half lug is in such demand, doesn't it seem like a S/W would do the smart thing and...produce more of that product?

The high prices on Gunbroker do show that the L-frame .357 Mountain Guns (i.e. w/o a full lug) are in high demand. Of that there is no doubt.
 
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This is an interesting thread which has educated me a bit. I also prefer revolvers with ejector shrouds but never considered the new ones with two piece barrels until now.
Thanks, Shinbone for posting this.
 
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No I don't think Smith would do that. They clearly have other guns they want to introduce with their manufacturing capacity other than Mountain Gun types which did sell well for years. I think that has more to do with competing on an innovative level with other manufacturers than looking to the past...even if there's still market for past products. I don't think this is unique to the firearms industry.

It looks to me like your barrel was over torqued and the end snapped off? Definitely has happened with standard L frame crush fit barrels, only they break at the shoulder. One member here had his 686 barrel go down range. My point is the engineering is not predisposed to such failure just like standard crush fit barrels are not....when they are set up correctly.

Respectfully disagree with the statement, cases in point:
re-releases of classic line, extremely limited Schofield releases. I bought the 586 classic, great pistol BTW. I could understand limited runs in order to keep demand up but charge a premium price. Or that a limited run is more costly but premium price compensates. Or, as a test run to see what demand is. Maybe, contrary to my point, the unit movement of 1/2 lugs did not justify permanent retooling

Point being, sometimes a company wishes to push its senior advertisement agenda instead of listening to a consumer base. Why do vacuum cleaners have headlights? Did the consumer base really voice a need for headlights?Or was it a glamour add-on that some advertisement genius thought they could price gouge for this "option". Heck, I think S/W should go to this forum's "wish list" and save money on consumer based research. Maybe pass that savings on in the form of reduced prices of merchandise.But I think the 620 did not sell, maybe due to an inherent flaw in design, or from failed marketing,,,only S/W knows.

No argumentative tone, just an alternative point to ponder.
 
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I have no opinion "why" regarding Smith's dropping various revolvers, but I will comment on the design. I don't have a Model 620, but I DO have a Model 520. Smith gave the same Model number to two different revolvers for reasons best known to them??? Mine is a blued, titanium cylinder with a composite barrel and adjustable sights:



It now wears a red dot sight and Pachmayr grips. It is one of the most accurate revolvers I have. I have shot only my own cast bullets in it, mostly original H&G #50 BB Full Charge wadcutters in .38 Special brass.



This was shot standing at 25 yards with the 520. Yeah, there are five shots there...

Dale53

P.S. The "other" Model 520, as I understand it was a fixed sight revolver for the New York State Police. WEIRD! rdm
 
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