I have been collection S&W since the late 1980's then i got my FFL and opened a shop. I just bought the S&W 460 & 500 to complete my collection.I took the 460 out to shoot and after i was done with the 5 rounds the ejector would not take them out. The wrong ejector plate was put in this gun which didn't touch the brass. I called and they said send it back so it went out the next day back to S&W. So i seen they got it so i called and just then they said it would be a 4 to 6 week waiting for a turn around. If i knew that at first i would of ask for the part and taken it to a gunsmith.The 500 was fine the only thing i could think of they put a 500 plate in my 460. I know mistakes happen but what happened to when you bought a new gun there was a empty case in the box and a burn ring on the cylinder and you knew it was shot and was ok. If only they would of done this i would not have to wait 6 weeks on a $1500 gun.Or i may be old school but i think the quality has gone down hill for what you pay for them.
What happened to Quality S&W
- Thread starter mooman1
- Start date
Grayfox
US Veteran
Bean counters and lawyers.
dubshooter
Member
I was pretty excited about the new UC line coming out. Had my guy order me one in. They’re supposed to be hand worked and have all this special stuff done to them.
Showed up with 3 chambers out of time.
Guess I’ll stick with my 442-1 I got years ago for $300
Showed up with 3 chambers out of time.
Guess I’ll stick with my 442-1 I got years ago for $300
Smith is not alone.
When Beretta moved to TN & hired their DEI staff due to Govt contracts (yes, I know Sig is the mil gun now), all sorts of garbage began to appear that hadn't before. Certainly not in the Eye-talian models. I have some pics of some of them somewhere.
Colt was pretty smooth when the King Cobra came back out. But when the Python hit, old ghosts began to haunt the guns. Repeated send-backs, all the usual hassles.
I won't pretend to know the inner workings of S&W and Colt, because I certainly have no clue. But we're not stupid. We know the history behind former great mfg names that are now run-of-the-mill, at best.
It's been shown that top tier QC actually results in more profit. But those lame brain marketing types probably have never even held a real job, held a gun, shot a gun or own one. Just sad, IMO.
When Beretta moved to TN & hired their DEI staff due to Govt contracts (yes, I know Sig is the mil gun now), all sorts of garbage began to appear that hadn't before. Certainly not in the Eye-talian models. I have some pics of some of them somewhere.
Colt was pretty smooth when the King Cobra came back out. But when the Python hit, old ghosts began to haunt the guns. Repeated send-backs, all the usual hassles.
I won't pretend to know the inner workings of S&W and Colt, because I certainly have no clue. But we're not stupid. We know the history behind former great mfg names that are now run-of-the-mill, at best.
It's been shown that top tier QC actually results in more profit. But those lame brain marketing types probably have never even held a real job, held a gun, shot a gun or own one. Just sad, IMO.
dubshooter
Member
Smith is not alone.
When Beretta moved to TN & hired their DEI staff due to Govt contracts (yes, I know Sig is the mil gun now), all sorts of garbage began to appear that hadn't before. Certainly not in the Eye-talian models. I have some pics of some of them somewhere.
Colt was pretty smooth when the King Cobra came back out. But when the Python hit, old ghosts began to haunt the guns. Repeated send-backs, all the usual hassles.
I won't pretend to know the inner workings of S&W and Colt, because I certainly have no clue. But we're not stupid. We know the history behind former great mfg names that are now run-of-the-mill, at best.
It's been shown that top tier QC actually results in more profit. But those lame brain marketing types probably have never even held a real job, held a gun, shot a gun or own one. Just sad, IMO.
Part of it might be when they’re spending too much time trying to turn out the newest latest and greatest and not enough time honing in what they’re making.
Don't doubt any of you for a second......
I'm not a revolver person...but I have owned 3 Shield Plus and currently still own 2..(3.1 inch barrel and the new carry comp.
I have never had any trouble with these S&W handguns, all have been flawless in construction and function.
While I do not doubt some have problems I can't rag on S&W for any valid purpose as all has been perfect with the Shield lineup for me.
Could be I'm just extremely lucky or extremely blessed to have good fortune with the Shield's....
I'm not a revolver person...but I have owned 3 Shield Plus and currently still own 2..(3.1 inch barrel and the new carry comp.
I have never had any trouble with these S&W handguns, all have been flawless in construction and function.
While I do not doubt some have problems I can't rag on S&W for any valid purpose as all has been perfect with the Shield lineup for me.
Could be I'm just extremely lucky or extremely blessed to have good fortune with the Shield's....
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Both of my recently purchased revolvers (66 and 617) went straight back to S&W for warranty repair, right out of the box. The work took about five weeks, in each instance. I'm not likely to purchase another new, S&W revolver. Handguns in the $900--$1,000 market should be reliable and able to pass a factory inspection before shipment.
Been a problem for a while now. So many combined reasons but one of them is that they make too many different types of firearms and are putting what used to be their bread and butter on the back burner. Combine that with all the other problems inherit with corporate America and your issues are now an everyday occurrence.
dubshooter
Member
I bought a Shield, full size 2.0 and compact 2.0 within a few months of each other a couple years ago. Two of them shipped out without striker channel liners installed.
I don't disagree with you, mostly.
But I have heard myself from many gun buyers about a company having "the same old-same old" year after year. Restaurants, cars/trucks, clothes, we all do it at some point, IMO.
Nothing wrong with expanding one's line, IMO. Smith gave us steel snubbies, then alloy, then titanium. They gave us 6-shot guns, then 7-shot, then 8-shot, then 10-shot. Then they gave us night sights, among others.
I might venture a guess that the QC dept has been told to NOT reject more than X% of the guns they look at. Obviously, I can't prove that, but it sure seems like it.
But poor QC sure limits my on-line buying of new guns, regardless of the brand. Well, H&K is probably going to be the exception.
Yendor357
Member
Them leaving the lock off (which was just extra money in their pocket) isn’t enough to make me buy a new Smith.
I’ve bout 6 Colts, 3 Pythons, 2 Anacondas, a 9 MM AR, and 3 CZs in the last 3 or 4 years. Not a problem with any of them. I don’t know why anyone would roll the dice when buying a Smith.
I’ve bout 6 Colts, 3 Pythons, 2 Anacondas, a 9 MM AR, and 3 CZs in the last 3 or 4 years. Not a problem with any of them. I don’t know why anyone would roll the dice when buying a Smith.
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Could someone please advise of a company whose products produced today are as good as the products that same company produced 30 years ago?
Keeping prices competitive is the reason quality suffers.
Keeping prices competitive is the reason quality suffers.
Benelli is one I think you can say that about. No?
TAROMAN
US Veteran
Bean counters, lawyers, and plastic.
My method for maintainging quality.....
... All of my revolvers are older models.
... All of my revolvers are older models.
Shoebox1.1
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Probably Glock.
The DLC for the Gen 5s seems to be better than the nitriding they used on the Gen 4, and in practice, as good as the old Tenifer finish used on the Gen 3 and earlier pistols.
The Gen 5 achieves accuracy that earlier generations could only reliably achieve with fitted barrels. Their accuracy standard is 50% tighter than the Gen 3/4, and they're still passing military trials.
The Gen 5 .40 S&W models that were designed for Brazilian police contracts finally beefed up the slide instead of just boring out a 9mm design an extra mm. Glock blamed over tightened lights, but Gen 3 G22/23 in particular could have functioning issues when using a WML. People suspect that there was a combo of frame flex issues and not enough slide mass for .40 S&W. If WMLs were near universal for duty use in the Gen 3's heyday, it probably would've been more widely reported.
Snap-On Tools come to mind. Toyota & Honda cars/trucks. Television sets but the top brands are no longer RCA, GE & so forth. Top brand tires such as Bridgestone, Michelin, etc.
In short, there's a few but very, very few.
But in today's mfg process, we now have robotics & CNC machines replacing a good % of production workers. So costs are kept in check for the most part, IMO.
But with the QC issues, I think what chaps many buyers is the fact that a lot of issues are readily visible during inspection & the checkers are passing them along. This happened with auto mfgrs back in the 1980s, producing junk as a majority of their products. Chrysler even went bankrupt during that period, ushering in Lee Iacocca.
It's been said many times, gun companies aren't ran by "gun guys". There're some exceptions to this, obviously.
My .o2
I think S&W's quality control issues are multi-factorial in nature. First, the bean counters. S&W was founded as a private, family owned business and quality firearms were what they produced. Then, as S&W fell on hard times, the family sold the business to Bangor Punta, a huge company with share holders to keep happy with profits and dividends. The result was the elimination of features such as pinned barrels and recessed chambers on the magnum caliber revolvers to reduce manufacturing time and costs. It can certainly be argued that the overall quality of the post-family owned S&W firearms was not quite as good as the earlier products. Since then, S&W has undergone more sales to different companies and quality of their products has varied.
A more recent decline started with the COVID-19 pandemic. S&W, like most other businesses, was shut down for a while, then when reopened had to keep the number of employees in the facilities reduced in order to meet the rules established for reopening during the pandemic. Fewer employees to turn out the same number of guns per day? Maybe if quality is allowed to slide downhill.
I also expect there were a good number of experienced employees who were at or close enough to retirement age to leave. The loss of experience is not something that can be easily replaced.
So, in my opinion, there are a number of reasons for their current quality control issues.
A more recent decline started with the COVID-19 pandemic. S&W, like most other businesses, was shut down for a while, then when reopened had to keep the number of employees in the facilities reduced in order to meet the rules established for reopening during the pandemic. Fewer employees to turn out the same number of guns per day? Maybe if quality is allowed to slide downhill.
I also expect there were a good number of experienced employees who were at or close enough to retirement age to leave. The loss of experience is not something that can be easily replaced.
So, in my opinion, there are a number of reasons for their current quality control issues.
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Each time S&W has been purchased from the previous owner it seems all they were after is pure profit. Nothing wrong with making a profit however in a business like this, you must have a passion for what you are producing and MUST want to make high quality products.
The extremely poor quality they have been turning out over the last few decades SHOWS they don't care about that and all they want is to line their pockets with greenbacks and then off the company to the next sucker down the line.
I believe they have not hired qualified personnel, they do not put the time, trouble, money and effort into proper training and they sure as hell have failed in teaching their employees ethics, morals and what high quality really is. To me these faults all fall on one single person - the CEO! He has the power to change things, but chose to live with the status quo. While I do not know him personally I'd say he needed to be replaced many years ago. You can make excuses and sugar coat a lemon just so long! I don't know this for a fact but I'd put money on that the moral of the employees is also pretty low.
As a S&W shooter, collector and aficionado for over 50 years I NEVER thought that S&W would go from the King of the hill to the bottom of the heap! A very sad statement to have to post, but it is the simple truth! Unfortunately, the newbies here don't or can't understand just how far the quality, craftsmanship and ethics of S&W has actually fallen as they have not known or experienced what the company used to produce and how their work ethic really was decades ago.
IMHO, if they don't reverse course, replace the CEO and hire properly trained and qualified employees real soon, S&W will be the laughing stock of the gun industry - not far now! While other company's who made cheap, poor quality bargain basement guns for many years actually stepped up to the plate and turned their products and company 180º around and currently produce descent quality firearms, S&W went completely the other way. The ONLY reason they have managed to survive like this is because of the massive expansion of the gun buying public in recent times. They had better wake up soon! Let's hope they do!
The extremely poor quality they have been turning out over the last few decades SHOWS they don't care about that and all they want is to line their pockets with greenbacks and then off the company to the next sucker down the line.
I believe they have not hired qualified personnel, they do not put the time, trouble, money and effort into proper training and they sure as hell have failed in teaching their employees ethics, morals and what high quality really is. To me these faults all fall on one single person - the CEO! He has the power to change things, but chose to live with the status quo. While I do not know him personally I'd say he needed to be replaced many years ago. You can make excuses and sugar coat a lemon just so long! I don't know this for a fact but I'd put money on that the moral of the employees is also pretty low.
As a S&W shooter, collector and aficionado for over 50 years I NEVER thought that S&W would go from the King of the hill to the bottom of the heap! A very sad statement to have to post, but it is the simple truth! Unfortunately, the newbies here don't or can't understand just how far the quality, craftsmanship and ethics of S&W has actually fallen as they have not known or experienced what the company used to produce and how their work ethic really was decades ago.
IMHO, if they don't reverse course, replace the CEO and hire properly trained and qualified employees real soon, S&W will be the laughing stock of the gun industry - not far now! While other company's who made cheap, poor quality bargain basement guns for many years actually stepped up to the plate and turned their products and company 180º around and currently produce descent quality firearms, S&W went completely the other way. The ONLY reason they have managed to survive like this is because of the massive expansion of the gun buying public in recent times. They had better wake up soon! Let's hope they do!
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