Range Rods

film495 · Jan 12, 2020

I'd been looking at these for a couple years from Brownells for a couple years, but just never wanted to doll out for one. Finally decided I should have one for .38/.357, since I keep looking for more, and that is a pretty good check to do, so decided to get one.

When I tested it, it is a service grade, on my Model 10 - there was one cylinder that you can feel it sort of touch and then continue on when it goes into the cylinder. Is that something to be concerned about, or is that good enough.

If not good enough, is that something I could fix, or does that just get handed off to a pro gunsmith. Is there a common reason for just one to be off? When I visually looked at it, there were 2 that just by eye did not seem perfectly centered when locked up to me.

ken158 · Jan 12, 2020

Short answer is that you are fine. A new cylinder stop and or hand (and even a new cylinder) can be fitted but absolute perfect alignment on every cylinder is rare. The forcing cone is there to align the bullet as it enters the barrel.

mh51 · Jan 12, 2020

Check for end-shake on the cylinder (forward-backward) movement. That can affect alignment. If there is no end-shake, then I wouldn't worry about that one chamber.

Krogen · Jan 12, 2020

Did you check it with the hammer in the re-bounded (i.e. normal) position? Or with the trigger pulled back and the hammer all the way down? Typically, they lock up tighter, and maybe better centered in the trigger back situation.

armorer951 · Jan 13, 2020

Individual pin gauges can also be used as range rods. They can be purchased in the desired diameter for each caliber needed.

Vermont brand pin/plug gauges are available at various online sources, like Amazon, for less than $5.00 each. You'll need to determine the correct diameter field size gauge you need for the desired caliber. The .345" gauge is the correct "field" rated gauge for most .38/357 caliber revolvers. I'm not sure what the diameter of the "match" grade gauge would be for the .38/.357 caliber. (if anyone knows please pass that info along)

Other common range rod "field" size gauges measure .441" for .45, and .415" for 44 magnum.

I just attach an 8-32 cap screw on the end of mine, then a suitable length cleaning rod can be screwed on to allow for insertion into the barrel/cylinder for testing. Instead of adding a threaded screw to the end..... the gauge could be drilled and tapped if desired, to allow a treaded rod to be screwed in. A bit crude perhaps .....but this will work just as well as the expensive ones.

Kuhnhausen's shop manual has an illustrated discussion about use of the range rod and testing procedures for determining proper alignment, and remedies for potential repair and/or adjustment. (Jerry Kuhnhausen, S&W Revolver Shop Manual, 5th Edition, Pages 76-77)

[ame="https://www.amazon.com/Vermont-Gage-Steel-Tolerance-Diameter/dp/B004THAG1I/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=vermont%2Bpin%2Bgauges&link_code=qs&qid=1578920172&sourceid=Mozilla-search&sr=8-3&th=1"]Vermont Gage Steel Go Plug Gage, Black Oxide, Tolerance Class ZZ, 0.345" Gage Diameter: Hardware Pin Gauges: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific[/ame]

film495 · Jan 13, 2020

I did check it in the trigger back position, like it had just been fired. I did all the other checks from a service guide on revolvers I found, did each check several times - pretty involved, but good checks. This was the only thing I had never done or checked.

It is interesting the directions just say insert it, but no mention of orienting the gun in different ways to test. Since there is a little play between the range rod, and the barrel, if the gun is oriented differently it may reveal different things, or would identify if timing is ahead or behind etc.

I'll have to work with it when I have a little more time to sit down with it. Just from memory - a year or so ago when I was just visually checking the alignment - two cylinders appeared slightly ahead in timing if my memory serves correctly, but it was not enough to keep me from putting a couple hundred rounds or so through it.

BLUEDOT37 · Jan 15, 2020

I too have used an individual pin gage to check chamber-to-bore alignment.

On "new to me" revolvers I like to check the barrel's bore for diameter & constrictions.

I use the largest pin gage that will freely slide down the bore to determine these.

And by just tipping the muzzle slightly up & down you can let the pin gage slide into each chamber & check it's alignment as the pin gage should have virtually no play in the bore.

While the bore may run .344-.345" the throats will likely run .357-.358" so you'll have a bit of "built-in" clearance between the two to start off.

(Here's just another reason to justify buying a common use pin gage set, .250"-.500". There's some good ones available for a reasonable price & you'll probably find other uses for it too.)

.

.

film495 · Sep 12, 2023

I got this old Model 10 out and plan to go over it and shoot it soon. I tested with the range rod again and noticed the couple chambers it ticks when entering the chamber. I've read some places on S&W revolvers, if you can manually work the play in the cylinger and the rod will go in, you are all good, which would be my case, but - today I checked the ejector rod for runout and well - I can visually see a good bit and am thinking of seeing if I can straighten that a bit, but I don't have a drill press or lath handy. Any tricks to it? I could probably make it straigher just with a vice and a a few boards, but before I really consider that I think I'll just disassemble the cylinder, rod, yolk assembly, clean it and put it back togeter and check it again, but my guess is it will be the same.

If I try to straighen that ejector rod - am I just going to make things worse? or is it worth a shot?

bgrafsr · Sep 12, 2023

film495 said:
I got this old Model 10 out and plan to go over it and shoot it soon. I tested with the range rod again and noticed the couple chambers it ticks when entering the chamber. I've read some places on S&W revolvers, if you can manually work the play in the cylinger and the rod will go in, you are all good, which would be my case, but - today I checked the ejector rod for runout and well - I can visually see a good bit and am thinking of seeing if I can straighten that a bit, but I don't have a drill press or lath handy. Any tricks to it? I could probably make it straigher just with a vice and a a few boards, but before I really consider that I think I'll just disassemble the cylinder, rod, yolk assembly, clean it and put it back togeter and check it again, but my guess is it will be the same.

If I try to straighten that ejector rod - am I just going to make things worse? or is it worth a shot?

Take a wood wedge, place it between the frame and under the ejector rod when the cylinder is open, and spin the cylinder. You will be able to see the rod wobble if it is bent.
Now move the rod so the bent part is up, and using a piece of lead bar strike the rod firmly but not too hard, on the knurled end of the rod and see if the rod straightened out. If not, continue finding the high side of the rod and hit it again with the lead bar.
I have a fixture for checking the straightness of an ejector rod, but since I was an armorer, I have several tools/fixtures for work on guns.

I believe Brownell's sells them.

MygunisaS&Wrevolver · Sep 12, 2023

Always place (empty)!!! fired cases in the cylinder charge holes when checking the barrel cylinder alignment with a range rod. Make sure the trigger is pulled all the way back. The empty cases make up for any slop in the ratchet pins. Hold the muzzle straight up and down when checking as this provided the least amount of resistance.

film495 · Sep 12, 2023

messed with it. didn't make it better or worse, but I was tentative in trying to bend the rod.. don't really have a great way to test it or measure it. it is visible endshake, so 1/32" ish by eye, very obvious wobble. range rod goes in and out fine if I put the revolver out like it is going to be fired, tings on a couple in a vertical with the muzzle up, but the rod goes in under its own power. guess I'm not sure what really is a pass fail here. it also seems to me one cylinder is almost out of time, the stop comes up, but that one cylinder in double action is close. I think, but I'd have to double check, think it is the cylinder direct aligned with the direction the rod is bent. This is the same cylinder that tings the most. Maybe I should throw the towel in on it and have a smith go over it and tune it up. no idea how much that would cost.

bgrafsr · Sep 12, 2023

armorer951 said:
"Bent" extractor rods can bind on the front locking lug, or rub on the inside of the extractor rod hole in the yoke shoulder. Usually the "bend" is actually not runout in the rod itself, but irregularity in the relationship between the screwed in rod and the extractor stem/body. When you true up the wobble in the rod, you're actually attempting to line up or true up the relationship between the threaded rod and stem of the extractor. You can verify the rod itself is straight by simply rolling it on a flat surface, like a piece of glass. In cylinder assemblies that use them, the extractor rod collar tolerances imposed between the rod and the extractor body add another variable to this screw joint, and can also cause the assembly to "wobble". The ext. rod collar can also contact irregularities and burrs on the inside of the yoke barrel and cause cylinder rotation problems.

Yoke mis-alignment can also be a problem, as others have previously stated, as can improper gauge in the assembly when it is installed in the revolver.

Carter

Very good explanation sir.

film495 · Sep 12, 2023

I kind of figured it was the joint where the star end connect to the actuator end. I don't know how much you have to flex it to bend, but - I did roll it on a table and you can see one way it lifts up at an angle at the jointa and the burled end is visibly off the table. I wonder if I can just bend it with my fingers and thumbs, but I have somehesitation that I'll crack it and it will snap in half.

BLUEDOT37 · Sep 12, 2023

Range rod, ejector rod. Not the same.

Should have started a new thread instead of piggybacking on this one so others interested in ejector rod repair could find these answers.

.

film495 · Dec 11, 2023

I had a gunsmith through the LGS look at it. He put a new hand in it and that seems to fixed up the timing. It came back, and the range rod goes in and out the exact same, ejector rod, still seems to have a little runout in it still, not strightened, but he said it was good to go and test fired it. I checked it with fired brass in it, empty, always with trigger back like it had just been fired. Kind of dissapointed he only did half the job, which was the timing, but - I don't know - I'm not a gunsmith, but I just can't imagine a gunsmith not being able to touch up cylinder alignment when doing the new hand and timing. I guess it is fine and I'm not expert, worst case it spits a hint of lead I guess.

I think this is one of those it must just be me things, but I put the cylinders that were out of alignment in my check on a checklist and marked the cylinders, and mentioned on the checklist the ejector rod, and when I spoke to the gunsmith. I just wanted it checked out, and he put a new hand in it and I can tell the timing is much better. Maybe it is one of those best judgement calls and they certainly know more than me - and that is to them acceptable in spec. I just know the new Tuarus I picked up, doing the same check, there's no tick or hesitation at all with the same range rod no matter how much I try to get it to tick or hit the face of the cylinder.

film495 · Dec 12, 2023

ken158 said:
Short answer is that you are fine. A new cylinder stop and or hand (and even a new cylinder) can be fitted but absolute perfect alignment on every cylinder is rare. The forcing cone is there to align the bullet as it enters the barrel.

I had a new hand put in it. To me honestly, I can barely tell any difference. It does seem most of the timing is advanced some and the stop overall pops up earlier, but two are still close, but better. The cylinders still tick on a couple with a Brownelle's service range rod, but I'm not sure of if or how S&W recommends to use one.

It is probably good to go, gunsmith who put the hand it said it was, but I'll clean it and go through my checks again, and if it clears into the range bag.

DWalt · Dec 12, 2023

Never used a range rod, never thought of a single good reason to use one. So many other factors are much more important.

chief38 · Dec 12, 2023

When I u sed to have a Lathe I made my own, never bought one. From what I have seen they are not too expensive. Make sure you get Brass.

smoothshooter · Dec 12, 2023

Maybe I am missing something here, but I thought a range rod was for attaching a brush or jag to for cleaning the bore; or something used by range officers to run down barrels to make sure guns don’t have a round in the chamber before someone leaves the firing line.

smoothshooter · Dec 12, 2023

film495 said:
I had a gunsmith through the LGS look at it. He put a new hand in it and that seems to fixed up the timing. It came back, and the range rod goes in and out the exact same, ejector rod, still seems to have a little runout in it still, not strightened, but he said it was good to go and test fired it. I checked it with fired brass in it, empty, always with trigger back like it had just been fired. Kind of dissapointed he only did half the job, which was the timing, but - I don't know - I'm not a gunsmith, but I just can't imagine a gunsmith not being able to touch up cylinder alignment when doing the new hand and timing. I guess it is fine and I'm not expert, worst case it spits a hint of lead I guess.

I think this is one of those it must just be me things, but I put the cylinders that were out of alignment in my check on a checklist and marked the cylinders, and mentioned on the checklist the ejector rod, and when I spoke to the gunsmith. I just wanted it checked out, and he put a new hand in it and I can tell the timing is much better. Maybe it is one of those best judgement calls and they certainly know more than me - and that is to them acceptable in spec. I just know the new Tuarus I picked up, doing the same check, there's no tick or hesitation at all with the same range rod no matter how much I try to get it to tick or hit the face of the cylinder.

Did you mean to say “chambers” instead of “cylinders”?
They are different things.

Range Rods

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