CANTED REVOLVER BARRELS - THE TRUTH AS I SEE IT

[chief38]

There are many complaints here in the Forum regarding canted or clocked Revolver barrels. Being sort of a Perfectionist myself, it's hard to accept less than perfection on a brand new and expensive out of the box or even worse, on a very expensive pristine vintage Revolver just purchased! As much as I am a bit OCD with this, I've encountered a few Revolvers over the years that aside from being cosmetically flawed with "crooked barrels" they shoot pretty darn well! I can accept a 2" Chief's Special lobbing all 5 rounds into a 2 1/2 - 3" " black circle at 50 feet despite its cosmetic flaw. Would I rather see it perfectly straight - of course, but a 2" snubby (158 grain bullets) that can put 5 rounds in 2 1/2" (poa=poi) I choose not to mess with!

So...... while I am CERTAINLY not one to make excuses for S&W (they have a plethora of flaws these days), sometimes we need to choose our battles. When a barrel is straightened out, removed or replaced you always take a chance on ruining said Revolver as it is the weak spot of the frame. The Gun Smiths these days are just not that talented (for the most part that is) and true work ethics are very hard to find any more. Again, as a Perfectionist it's something hard to over look HOWEVER if the fixed sight Revolver shoots pretty much dead on sometimes it's better off leaving well enough alone. On adjustable sight Revolvers most of the time the rear sight can be adjusted to "straighten out" the error. Basically what I am saying here is that while the barrels SHOULD be straight from the get-go, don't take a chance on messing with an otherwise perfect Revolver if shooting as well as your ability.

Just so everyone is aware, Clocked barrels are not unique to S&W. Colt's and Ruger's are also vulnerable to this as well. One of my friends recently bought a pristine (and I mean pristine) 1970's Colt Dick Spl. and of course to throw a fly in the ointment I noticed the barrel was clocked a slight amount. Because the Dick Spl. shot incredibly well (poa=poi with 158 gr. lead bullets) at 50 feet I did not mention it to him. He is tickled pink about the gun and he shoots it quite well. No sense in sending out a perfectly fine shooter and one that looks like it was made last week and taking a chance on ruining it. Aside from which if the barrel was straightened out it might not shoot as well - ha!

I did want to post this because clocked or canted barrels are so common these days and sometimes they do not shoot straight and must be fixed. Other times when they do shoot well - leave well enough alone IMHO.

Just my own dos centavos.

 

[shawn mccarver]

The entire problem is eliminated with the so called “two-piece barrel.” The shroud is fixed in place with a keyway, allowing the barrel to be properly torqued and headspaced without turning it too far.

 

[mikerjf]

I had a Beretta 948 (22lr auto with drift-adjustable rear sight) that needed the rear drifted over quite a bit. Looked bad and I hated it.

I suppose we could just have sights that adjust an inch or more sideways at each end. Solves the problem, right? Not if you believe in striving for quality…

 

[ken158]

Back in the day, the S&W assembly people were paid by piecework and if they assembled a gun that did not pass inspection, it was returned for correction until it did pass. I would think that made a much better end product. I doubt that method of compensation would work now with all the fussing and complaining that would result from the workforce if management expected a perfect product.

 

[Pisgah]

If a canted barrel bothers anyone, they are easy to avoid -- just examine the gun you are buying. It baffles me how many people apparently don't bother to even look over a gun they are buying, and how many people complain about how a gun shoots (high-low-left-right) when it is often their own refusal to train properly with a new gun that's causing the problem.

 

[JohnHL]

The entire problem is eliminated with the so called “two-piece barrel.” The shroud is fixed in place with a keyway, allowing the barrel to be properly torqued and headspaced without turning it too far.

One would think so, shawn, but a recently purchased 64-8 (with the "two-piece barrel") looks to my "micrometer" eyeballs like it is very slightly clocked.

It is so small that it could be my illusion, but there must be some clearance in the "keyway" for the barrel shroud, right?

Anyway, I have seen much worse and this definitely comes under the heading, "leave well enough alone".

John

 

[2152hq]

It was common in the shops I've worked in that after installing or reinstalling a bbl back in an action or frame and when you think you have it correct (12 oclock high),,you'd then show it to a couple of the other thrusted workers in the shop for their opinion.

Most often you'd get at least one that would honestly say the bbl was off one way or the other. Sometimes more than one opinion was in that direction.

The trouble with allaignment is that it very often does come down to what your eyes are seeing and your brain is then telling you.

You can checkand recheck the squareness with all sorts of precision measurment tools, layout bloc, ect.
But there usually isn't a perfectly flat surface on the gun to begin with nor a 90* angle to workoff of.
If there is a flat to work off of, it may be on the underside of an action or frame, an as machined surface.
Side surfaces and top surfaces start out that way but then polishing can change them from their previous perfect horizontal & vertical flats to being off a degree or more.
Trying to level off of one of those isn't going to give you a tru straight up line up top for your sights.

Simple sets of parallel bars set along the top surface of a gun if there are flat surfaces to do it will quite often show the sighting surfaces way off from square.

Guns that are disassembled are generally punched with a 'witness mark' at the bbl/frame juncture to mark the exact allaignment before unwinding them.
The idea is that you simply turn them back together again right to that mark and presto,,12 oclock again.
But if they aren't perfect to begin with, that plan is obviously flawed. You have to see that beforehand.
Plus you have to make that witness mark very fine and very precise for it to be perfectly lined up again.
A bold mark accross both parts is easy to see while peeking over the back side of the bbl vise with your magnifiers on.
But being just a partial div of that mark off,,and it's a degree or maybe less in rotation off on 'clocking'. ,,and there's your canted bbl again.

You can't see the problem till the frame bbl assembly is back out of the bbl vise and frame wrench is taken off.
Then to fix the slightly canted issue,,back go the frame wrench and into the bbl vise it goes. All careful work to be done so as not to scratch or otherwise damge things.
All for a 'tweak' of the assembly to bring it up to 12oclock.

 

[Protocall_Design]

I machined vise jaws for the mill vise that hold the barrel exactly vertical. When I'm putting a barrel back on, the barrel goes in the vise and the grip frame is checked with a machinist square to be exactly 90 degrees to the mill table. It takes about 30 seconds to bring it up perfect every time. S&W could do the same thing (even automated) if they wanted to.

 

[chief38]

I machined vise jaws for the mill vise that hold the barrel exactly vertical. When I'm putting a barrel back on, the barrel goes in the vise and the grip frame is checked with a machinist square to be exactly 90 degrees to the mill table. It takes about 30 seconds to bring it up perfect every time. S&W could do the same thing (even automated) if they wanted to.

Your method is excellent and you are 100% correct….. S&W should be doing the same. That said, unfortunately we have to deal with what is S&W’s reality.

Many barrels (that I was actually addressing in my post) are not bad and just slightly off - some are horrendous and must go back. I have one model that is slightly off but shoots so darn well there is no way I’d let them touch it!! Who knows, maybe that's how they sight them in - LOL

 

[Protocall_Design]

It's just as easy to correct a barrel that's a bit off. Same exact setup, barrel in vise, frame wrench on frame, tweak one way or the other to bring the grip frame perpendicular. No need to remove the barrel, just turn it a bit to line up.

 

[JDinAZ]

I machined vise jaws for the mill vise that hold the barrel exactly vertical. When I'm putting a barrel back on, the barrel goes in the vise and the grip frame is checked with a machinist square to be exactly 90 degrees to the mill table. It takes about 30 seconds to bring it up perfect every time. S&W could do the same thing (even automated) if they wanted to.

Yep fixturing is the key

That is a failure on the engineers at Smith for not engineering an assembly fixture to ensue said part A into hole B worker has the proper fool proof tool to do the job

This is my assessment from being in industrial manufacturing for a long long time. Provide a dedicated fixture to the production line and things come out right at the end. Give a pile of parts to an assembly worker without the proper fixtures and you just rolled the dice on the end product

PPM defect and failure rates are a thing. Honeywell, Lockheed, Parker-Hannifin have no sense of humor when it comes to defects or failures

Consistency is the key to quality

Smith give me a call. I will correct these problems and have your facility running like a Swiss watch. It’s what I do

 

[Protocall_Design]

Me too. Tool & Die and Fixture Maker for over 45 years. They are never going to ask us for advice.

 

[JDinAZ]

Me too. Tool & Die and Fixture Maker for over 45 years. They are never going to ask us for advice.

It’s because we have real hands on experience. And zero tolerance for failures

Not a fancy book degree and a whole lot of “let’s try this guys, the book says it works”

Bwahahaha

 

[cmj8591]

Smith give me a call. I will correct these problems and have your facility running like a Swiss watch. It’s what I do

The problem is that not everyone can afford a Swiss watch. That's why Timex is in business.

 

[2152hq]

They (Smith) should certainly be able to elliminate any problems in a factory setting.
Working with components that they mfg in the the first place so they control spec/tolerances. Plus the arraratus/fixturing to assemble needs only fit their product. It can be made to perfectly allaign and position the parts.

In a general repair atmosphere where you get any and all mfg, bbl contours, styles, age , thats where each job can becomes it's own time consuming project.

 

[BSA1]

Barrels have been canted on revolvers made since the 1970’s. Armorers sometimes used a tool called “Lead Babbit” to correct alignment issues. I suggest the O.P. and others that have such a problem with canted barrels take some relaxing pills or a few stiff drinks before researching how a lead babbit was used.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

My Thunder Ranch .45 had a canted barrel and incorrect height sight. Really affected the poi. Went back to them and got it fixed. Shouldn’t have left the factory that way. Those are Ken’s lovely stag grips.

 

[2152hq]

Barrels have been canted on revolvers made since the 1970’s. Armorers sometimes used a tool called “Lead Babbit” to correct alignment issues. I suggest the O.P. and others that have such a problem with canted barrels take some relaxing pills or a few stiff drinks before researching how a lead babbit was used.

Way back in the 1970's they had problems....that long ago?.
A lead hammer,,I've heard of such a thing but never seened one.

The factory is more than capable of putting a bbl on straight up. That's the issue.,,they seem to be able to meet that goal a lot of the time.
It's just sloppy workmanship (workpersonship) whatever.

If the gun doesn't shoot straight with the bbl on 12o'clock straight up and you want to bend the bbl a bit with a lead (babbit) hammer or just the front sight blade like ole' Askins did for the BP 38 New Services and call it good that's fine. Gov't work is usually less demanding of quality.
Real paying customers usually don't appreciate the final look and the attached bill for services.

When I put a bbl on (or back on) a Luger, S&W, Colt SAA, Winchester or Mauser rifle,,it has to be straight up.
I'm not a lead hammer mechanic armorer.
I'm a gunsmith.

I will take you up on those drinks!

 

[JDinAZ]

The problem is that not everyone can afford a Swiss watch. That's why Timex is in business.

Revamping the internal processes would not make the product line cost more. It would result in a better product produced more effectively

I’ve done this whole dance before. More product out the door, eliminating errors, while reducing costs, and ending overtime labor expenditures

A timex price while providing Swiss watch quality can be done

 

[Nick B]

I’ll have to post a pic of my 625-3 where the barrel has been tightening itself with shooting . The front sight now is canted a good 1/8” or more to the left . Unshootable now .