NRA has lost sight of Precision Pistol

BE Mike said:

My bullseye shooting background started in 1971 and ended in 2006 due to physical problems.

……. The NRA has spent quite a bit of money running the matches at Camp Perry each year. The entry fees don't begin to cover the costs. …....

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For what I paid to shoot at Camp Perry National Pistol Matches in 2014 plus several other matches that week, I find it very difficult to believe that the NRA didn't make a tidy profit. Most of the work was done by volunteers, cardboard target backers were reused, and bulk buy of targets can't be that expensive.

250 shooters per relay, 3 relays per day, entry fee of about $270 totals to more than $200,000 for 3 days for the 2700 championship. It was a once in a lifetime experience for me comparable to the Alaskan cruise I and my wife took in 2013. But ONCE was enough for either event.

Engineer1911 said:

For what I paid to shoot at Camp Perry Nation al Pistol Matches in 2014 plus several other matches that week, I find it very difficult to believe that the NRA didn't make a tidy profit. Most of the work was done by volunteers, cardboard target backers were reused, and bulk buy of targets can't be that expensive.

250 shooters per relay, 3 relays per day, entry fee of about $270 totals to more than $200,000 for 3 days for the 2700 championship. It was a once in a lifetime experience for me comparable to the Alaskan cruise I and my wife took in 2013. But ONCE was enough for either event.

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You may find it hard to believe, but the figures don't lie. Camp Perry charged the NRA quite a bit to use their post for these activities. The people who paste the targets are paid. The NRA staff are paid. The former NRA head of competitions once laid out the figures. There is much more participation from rifle shooters of various kinds, but still it isn't nearly enough to cover the expenses.

6string said:

I think it is a big mistake to lock Precision Pistol into the obsolete 2700 framework. It is killing the sport. For the "45 stage", NRA has lost sight that 1) the 1911 is no longer the US service pistol, and hasn't been for some decades, and 2) even if it was, the current rules are out of touch with the spirit of the "service pistol" intent of the third stage of the 2700. Red dot sights, light triggers, even adjustable target sights, are contrary to the spirit of the game. The 45 stage, as is, should be dropped or radically changed to get back to the idea of a service pistol match.

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HUH??!!

(1) In case you've not noticed, Bullseye is rather big on tradition. Didn't you hear the outrage when the idea of electronic target scoring was floated?

(2) There's absolutely nothing in the rules that requires a 1911 for the .45ACP portion of the match. I've seen it shot--well--with Springfield XDs.

(3) There's a reason we call it the ".45 match", and not the "service pistol" match. It's because it's shot with a .45, not whatever silly thing happens to be the official service pistol at the moment. Why would you even want to shoot a precision match with a Sig P320, anyway?

(4) If you actually think that a 2-4# trigger is "not in keeping with the spirit of the game", head on over to the CMP and do their Distinguished (wait for it) Service Pistol match. Or, you can actually be good, and do Distinguished Revolver. The former requires jacketed ball ammo, I can't remember what revolver requires.

(5) If you want to compete without electronic sights, there's this thing called "Metallic Division", which uses all the same guns, but requires (*drumroll*) metallic sights. Only catch is that there's no metallic-only records, but that's sort've okay, because the record 2700 nationals score was shot was iron sights.

(6) I don't know of any precision pistol event that doesn't allow adjustable sights. Because that would, you know...not make any sense.

And no, what's "killing the sport" is that it's slow as hell and not very flashy. And before you go blaming all those young'uns for not wanting to pick up a game that requires, at the very least, a boring .22, and a very expensive .45, I would point out that every IDPA, IPSC, and steel-whatever match I've ever seen has been loaded with guys old enough to be my grampa.

Oh, and the NRA does an absolutely piss-poor job of promoting the sport, advertising local matches, and generally administrating competition. Which isn't the fault of the people that actually work in the Competitions Department, who barely make enough to live on and have to deal with prissy jerkwad shooters whining that their scores haven't been entered yet. It's the fault of the guys that work in HQ making six figures.

malph said:

I agree with you. The problem is that now 20 something year old will never build the skill required to excel at bullseye.

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6string said:

Sadly, these young shooters who just dump magazine after magazine of 9mm into a zombie target 10 feet in front of them are just ingraining poor shooting habits they'll likely never overcome.

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This is the part where I point out that, presuming you guys are in your sixties, I'm about half your age, and have been competing in Bullseye since before I was old enough to own a pistol. And then I leave this here.



Great job rolling out the welcoming mat for those "younger shooters" you're hoping to attract, though! Keep telling them they're awful and will never get better. I mean, it certainly drives off nine of every ten of them, but that tenth guy? He learns how to really enjoy being smug after matches.

And no, the problem is that you old fogies are just so damn easy to beat, I never really have to try very hard. You are limiting my potential.

I'm not even making that up--between like 1930-something and 1950-something, national championship-winning 300 scores went from something like 275 to 290. There were no advances in guns, ammo, sights, etc, the degree of competition just went up. There's literally a guy that won a national title in the 30s and again in the mid 50s, using the same gun, and the same ammo.

the taste in firearms has changed to mirror a change in the world. Today`s world is more violent than years ago. Robberies,terrorism,etc have climbed.People have an awareness to protect themselves. This has given rise to the trend in auto pistols and semi auto rifles. revolvers,match shooting,where once very popular,has taken a back seat to Glocks and AR15`s.The firearms field has always been changing

Wise_A said:

HUH??!!And no, the problem is that you old fogies are just so damn easy to beat, I never really have to try very hard. You are limiting my potential.

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I suppose that you are a high master since beating the old fogies is so boring. The photo of your target doesn't represent that level of skill. Just call me snider than a Wise A!

Moderators: This is not intended as a political diatribe, but it is near impossible to present a balanced statement on the decline of traditional target shooting without identifying the political atmosphere. No stance one way or another is presented here.

I have been biting my tongue, because there are several valid discussion points here, but some seem to suggest a degree of misinformation!

Concerning the operation of the National Matches, be it either at Camp Perry or Camp Atterbury. I can't speak to the cost to lease the ranges, but I can address the status of volunteers and resources available to competitors.

Volunteers can be true volunteers or they can be compensated. I was a volunteer at Camp Atterbury this past summer during both mid-range and long-range rifle. If a person is an unpaid volunteer, the NRA provides housing and meals, while paid volunteers are treated as subcontractors and must provide their own housing and meals.

Shooter resources at Camp Atterbury far exceed those currently at Camp Perry. I have fired at Camp Perry almost annually since 1988, and I have seen a decline. Affordable housing at Camp Perry is now limited to the few remaining PW huts or the barracks. Dining facilities are almost non-existent, declining from the mess hall (destroyed by a tornado) to catered by a grocery store in the armory to caterer-manned company mess to trailer/truck food vendors. When I went to Camp Perry this past summer for CMP Pistol, the affordable restaurants in Port Clinton were Mendoza's (Mexican), Phil's (Italian), and Bob's Big Boy, followed by Wendy's, Burger King, and McDonald's. At this writing, Phil's is supposed to be history and Bob's Big Boy is rumored to be closing and being replaced by a sports bar. Rumor was that the Mendoza's were considering closing.

If you are with a Junior team, or participating as inexpensively as possible, your options for housing and eating are severely limited, in the vicinity of Camp Perry.

I concede that participation at Camp Atterbury is currently lean. I see it as growing pains. This past summer, the housing ranged from basically (very nice) BOQ housing with either shared or private bathrooms or the campground. The all ranks club (reasonable menu) was open to the civilians. Motels and hotels (as well as different food offerings) were within an easy commute, just like Port Clinton. While the current HP range in use is limited to 250 competitors, it is supposed to be expandable, plus an additional thousand yard range is available. At the close of the Camp Atterbury Nationals, word was that for next year, the NRA may have access to a barracks or two for competitors and possibly a mess hall.

Currently, participation in virtually all forms of the traditional NRA matches is down, and not necessarily due to the actions of the NRA. I can speak with reference to high power rifle and pistol. In the past three years, I have yet to see a fully squadded 1800 or 2700 match in pistol, while the occasional 900 rimfire was close to being fully squadded. In high power, XTC participation is dropping, while fixed distance mid-range and long-range matches are thriving.

The question is why! Politically, we have to contend with the anti-gun atmosphere, demonizing the tool and anyone that introduces the sport (or arm) to juniors. Next is economics. First and foremost, quality target arms (if still manufactured) are not as accessible as they once were. You no longer see new High Standards, Model 41s or Woodsman Targets on the shelves, but you can find the Ruger Mk xx Target. You no longer see Winchester Model 52s or 70Ts, nor Remington 40s. The tools that were the backbone of the sport just aren't out there in affordable numbers.

Forget entry fees, but look at feeding the guns. Twenty-twos have skyrocketed. Ammo for a 22 900 is now at least $8 or more, compared to less than $2. Factory ammo for a centerfire or 45 900 will cost at least $35. Total ammo cost for a pistol 2700 is at least $80! For a smallbore 6400 (3200 irons/3200 scope) match, you are looking at almost $500+, depending on what you feed your pet rifle! Again, if you shoot factory ammo in high power, figure an easy dollar a round, so an XTC 800 NMC would cost $88.

For the centerfire target games, participation is dependent upon reloading, which not everybody does!

In many respects, it is more the political views and economics of the day that are killing the traditional bullseye sports!

Regarding the comment that the classic breast and butter bullseye guns are no longer being produced. That's because the manufacturers guess there is a limited market for them.

The big sellers now are the LC9s, Shields,P365s and their ilk.

If the accuracy intensive games still dominated, their would be manufacturers attempting to compete for that business.

To the person in their thirties saying bullseye is easy and sort of griping about the older guys in the game, I get it. As the game gets more niche and the average age of the competitors rises, their is a natural inclination toward a bit of elitism which is not helpful.
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At the end of the day, I think it is the slow nature of the game and less direct tie in to self defense related skills which are limiting the sports popularity with the younger shooters.

malph said:

Regarding the comment that the classic breast and butter bullseye guns are no longer being produced. That's because the manufacturers guess there is a limited market for them.

The big sellers now are the LC9s, Shields,P365s and their ilk.

If the accuracy intensive games still dominated, their would be manufacturers attempting to compete for that business.

To the person in their thirties saying bullseye is easy and sort of griping about the older guys in the game, I get it. As the game gets more niche and the average age of the competitors rises, their is a natural inclination toward a bit of elitism which is not helpful.
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At the end of the day, I think it is the slow nature of the game and less direct tie in to self defense related skills which are limiting the sports popularity with the younger shooters.

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Gee, I always felt like the action pistol games were slow. I'd stand around all day waiting for my turn to shoot and then get to shoot a few rounds in a couple of minutes. Precision (bullseye) pistol shooting has never been for the casual shooter. It requires a lot of time and money. There certainly are a wide variety of pistol shooting disciplines around today and that waters down the numbers participating in any one discipline. I haven't seen much elitism displayed by bullseye pistol shooters. I've found the majority to be open to new folks and very helpful. As it requires a lot of focus, some shooters, usually in the lower classes, tend to try to stay focused during the match, even when scoring and that might be mistaken for being snobbish.

BE Mike said:

I suppose that you are a high master since beating the old fogies is so boring. The photo of your target doesn't represent that level of skill. Just call me snider than a Wise A!

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I'd point out three things, Mike.

One--a 96 SF and a clean Timed+Rapid will very happily get you to HM. Maths!

Two--ain't it funny how .45 holes are bigger? Although I will confess to taking quite a few .22 matches with some very convenient edge breaks.

Three--hah! I don't have any guns from 2002, much less any targets saved!

Irrifleman said:

You no longer see new High Standards, Model 41s or Woodsman Targets on the shelves

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I don't think there's a single shop in my area that doesn't have a 41 in stock.

I would agree that there's not a ton of suitable .45s or centerfire pistols available if you take the position that optics--and a tube-style in particular--are necessary to be really competitive. But I think that .22 matches are really the "entry-level" to the sport.

Making the jump to centerfire, I think, is one of the problems. It's a cycle of there not being enough competitors to make super-regular local matches a thing, so there's no need for the gear, which keeps people from getting into centerfire, and so on.

As to nationals participation, while it's down, I think our standards are stupendously high. A few of the action pistol sports might only have 50 guys showing up for the national match. The line at BE nationals is huge in comparison.

malph said:

At the end of the day, I think it is the slow nature of the game and less direct tie in to self defense related skills which are limiting the sports popularity with the younger shooters.

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Honestly? Younger shooters aren't competing in the shooting sports pretty much across the board. I mean, I'm absolutely baby-faced at a BE match, but a shooter in their 20s is sure gonna stand out at an IDPA, IPSC, or steel match, at least around here.

No matter what your sport, competing is expensive, both in terms of time and money. The economy still isn't great for younger folks.

As to time, I think that there's less social acceptance for "Hey, honey--I'm gonna disappear for a weekend, drive a couple hundred miles, stay in a hotel, and compete in such-and-such a thing with my $2000 pistol and a couple hundred bucks in ammo. Have fun taking care of my spawn while I'm away!".

Locally, there's a dude that does that nonsense regularly for some idiot shoot-fast sport. Here's what the reaction is:

Old Guys: "Oh, his wife is an ANGEL!" (direct quote, in one case)

Young Guys: "Gee, I wonder who her boyfriend is!"

There is no skill level requirement at The National Rifle and Pistol Matches at Camp Perry. That is why in comparison, there are fewer run and gun participants. I'm surprised you didn't know that Wise A. Haven't you been and shown the older high masters how it's done? I doubt that bullseye pistol (now precision) shooting is any more expensive than golf, serious fishing or other outdoor sports. It is much more demanding of time than many, though. When I was your age, I would wake up at O dark thirty, drive 150 miles to a 2700 and drive back home after the match, ready for work the next day. I guess you younger folks can't do that anymore.

BE Mike said:

There is no skill level requirement at The National Rifle and Pistol Matches at Camp Perry. That is why in comparison, there are fewer run and gun participants. I'm surprised you didn't know that Wise A. Haven't you been and shown the older high masters how it's done?

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Very well aware--I'm pointing out that you guys are worried about filling out a massive line with shooters from all classifications. Action pistol only cares about holding a nationals match with guys that will show up anyway.

And no--tbh, I don't find the nationals compelling or interesting. People I don't like, miserable weather, and a six-hour drive. There's a 25/50-yard range like 20 mins from my house.

I doubt that bullseye pistol (now precision) shooting is any more expensive than golf, serious fishing or other outdoor sports. It is much more demanding of time than many, though.

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I don't, either. I think that younger folks (20s-30s) have less money and are under-represented across the board. That's why I pointed out that organized action pistol isn't loaded with them, either.

As a side note, if you look at bass fishing--another of my hobbies--what's really popular among younger anglers isn't big-dollar bass boats and big-money tournaments on TV, it's YouTubers focusing on one rod/one reel, fishing from the shore and out of a backpack, urban and pond fishing, etc. All the really cheap ways to fish.

When I was your age, I would wake up at O dark thirty, drive 150 miles to a 2700 and drive back home after the match, ready for work the next day. I guess you younger folks can't do that anymore.

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Well, for one, there aren't that many 2700s anymore. For a lot of folks, it'd be a bit more of a drive than that.

For another, no, that's nobody's idea of something to do for fun, especially not when you're already doing that Monday through Friday anyway.

Bragging about it and then wondering why there are less and less people to shoot with is somewhat foolish.

Wise_A said:

Very well aware--I'm pointing out that you guys are worried about filling out a massive line with shooters from all classifications. Action pistol only cares about holding a nationals match with guys that will show up anyway.

And no--tbh, I don't find the nationals compelling or interesting. People I don't like, miserable weather, and a six-hour drive. There's a 25/50-yard range like 20 mins from my house.



I don't, either. I think that younger folks (20s-30s) have less money and are under-represented across the board. That's why I pointed out that organized action pistol isn't loaded with them, either.

As a side note, if you look at bass fishing--another of my hobbies--what's really popular among younger anglers isn't big-dollar bass boats and big-money tournaments on TV, it's YouTubers focusing on one rod/one reel, fishing from the shore and out of a backpack, urban and pond fishing, etc. All the really cheap ways to fish.



Well, for one, there aren't that many 2700s anymore. For a lot of folks, it'd be a bit more of a drive than that.

For another, no, that's nobody's idea of something to do for fun, especially not when you're already doing that Monday through Friday anyway.

Bragging about it and then wondering why there are less and less people to shoot with is somewhat foolish.

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I don't think I can adequately respond; my eyes are too full of tears for younger shooters not having enough money, being underrepresented and having little drive.

Did you legitimately just brag about a generation not doing as well economically as their parents?

I arrived at my father in law's house yesterday to do some shooting and one of my wife's cousins, his wife and a Marine friend of theirs was shooting.

Nice folks, and I shot with them for an hour or so.

I was playing with a newly acquired Ruger Blackhawk in .357 Magnum (the purpose of the trip) but as always took the opportunity to shoot my concealed carry 3" 686+ and expend the long in the tooth carry ammo.

I have a few steel plate targets set up including a full size IPSC silhouette.

At 15 yards I shot at one of the smaller plates double action at something between a timed and rapid fire rate of fire and put a group about 2" in diameter on the plate. Someone remarked that my 686 was really accurate. I guess it was ok for the lighting - sun low on the horizon and at about 1:30 to the target, making precise sight alignment difficult with no discernable light between the front and rear sight elements due to the glare. An "ok" DA group with that revolver and ammo would have been half that size at that range.

The Blackhawk also did ok at that range with about 1" at 15 yards, Obviously single action and again with poor light for iron sights.

I noted however that from that point forward, when the two male shooters would shoot they'd try a couple rounds slow fire and then with the start of a 6" to 8" group, they'd just blast away and scatter rounds all over (and around) the plate.

I plan on shooting with them again and I'll ease into what can be done with a semi-auto pistol in terms of accuracy with double taps and controlled pairs. Pride is a major barrier to improvement and motivating handgun shooters to aspire to a handgun's potential is a delicate thing.

After they left, and in the remaining light at sundown, I moved back to 50 yards, then 100 yards to see what the Blackhawk could do. Even in low light, at 100 yards it kept 10 out of 12 rounds on the IPSC target, and it kept 4 out of 6 rounds on a plate sized to mimic the vital area on a deer.

I'll play with it under good lighting conditions next trip.

“The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. ”


― Alvin Toffler


Fast is fine but accuracy is final.

After reading this thread, these two quotes popped into my mind.

This dialog is very discouraging! Reading through the thread, it has become an attack between the young and more experienced shooters, pointing fingers at each other.

The NRA is not like our Congress. We are the NRA, and we (the membership) tend to drive the bus! Perhaps the leadership at the NRA has lost sight of what the membership desires, but how often does the membership communicate their desires to the leadership? Sometimes, the membership plops down the cash for an annual membership, then expects the organization to: fight the anti-gun movement, promote firearms safety, sanction competitions, conduct/establish/enforce rules pursuant to the ISU, etc.

With respect to the competitions, the NRA can only be guided by the participation that they see. When numbers dwindle, they have to look to the games that are drawing participants. I really don't want to draw financial comparisons between the NRA and the CMP, because I am not well versed in those areas. But I do know that the NRA like each and every one of us here, will not invest hard earned (or hard to come by) cash in something that doesn't show signs of taking hold.

Local matches are a fair indicator of participation at the state, regional, and national levels. Costs of running a national match may include (but not be limited to) range leases, material costs (including material storage between nationals), awards, volunteer expenses, payment of subcontractors, and NRA staff expenses (placing NRA staff on-site for the duration of the event, travel expenses, and upkeep). Perhaps some may say that I was a fool, but during mid-range, I was one of two volunteers (my assignment was parking/range traffic control from 6a to 7a, then scorecard runner in addition to block officer duty until about 3p). During long-range, I was the only volunteer, with my day starting at 4:30a and ending about 3:30p, doing parking/traffic control from 5a to 7a, then block officer until the end of firing. That for about a hundred or so competitors.

Granted, there is an ongoing boycott of Camp Atterbury because some are opposed to the move from Camp Perry. The state of Indiana wants the NRA national matches there. It was discussed among the National Match staff that Indiana was going to:
a) build a 200 point smallbore range,
b) build a 300 point precision pistol range, and
c) reorient the 4000 foot north-south runway to a 4000 foot east-west runway in order to accommodate the high power matches.

Now for the challenge! Think back to the matches that you participated in this past year. Did you participate in:
IDPA, IPSC, USPSA, GSSF, IHMSA, CAS, Precision Pistol, F class, XTC, Mid-range, Long-range, or ATA, just to name a few of the many offerings? Just like there are a number of Gun Rights groups fighting for your membership support, there are a number of shooting events that we may participate in, but we must remember that they don't necessarily call within the NRA's domain! As we branch out into different shooting games, we may be drawing away from NRA sanctioned events. In many respects, we are contributing to the demise of the traditional shooting events.

glenwolde said:

I see action pistol matches on the Outdoor Channel & other cable stations. Never see Precision Pistol. Maybe the problem is TV revenue. They need "content". Bullseye would be about as exciting as watching .... Well I can't think of anything more boring to watch.

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For us shotgunner’s, watching a Trap Shoot is equally exciting...or boring.

Precision pistol shooting is my vice of choice but the time involved to compete keeps me from being to involved beyond an informal 22 match once a month. I also attend an air pistol match 3-4 times a year. One thought comes to mind is that NRA style precision pistol shooting is almost exclusively a USA sport and it is different than international precision pistol shooting so there is not that much crossover and of course no Olympic competition for NRA style matches. It could be there would be more participation if the matches and equipment where the same. That being said it is very satisfying to step up to the firing range pickup my 1911 and put one right through the X at 25 yards while the guy next to me is missing the black at 12 yards when he is holding the pistol with both hands.

I actually started out in Bullseye shooting matches. Loved them but started too late in life to really continue with it. Hands and wrists just couldn't handle the one handed game with that 45 and that was my favorite stage, albeit not my best. I keep the 45 BE gun but have to shoot it two handed now.

A shame it's falling by the wayside as it is really fun and hard to do. Far harder than the runnin' and gunnin' stuff now. I do IDPA now as I can mostly use two hands. I think it being hard is driving youngsters away. It's like golf, if something is hard to master it's not going over with the ipad folks who want instant gratification. Just my opinion.

I think a lot of the decline of precision shooting has to do with the general change in attitude towards shooting in itself. Once considered a very demanding and disciplined sport, shooting is now looked upon as a survival skill.
I think its safe to say that the vast majority of gun owners today have guns for the purpose of self defense. Shooting sports take a very distant second or maybe third place.
Not to mention that for many, life is very busy these days.
So why should they spend the time, money and work so hard to hit that tiny X when all they really need is to be able to keep shots in the A zone?