NRA has lost sight of Precision Pistol

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Have any of you gotten the sense that the NRA is turning away from Precision (i.e.: Bullseye) Pistol?
Their magazine "Shooting Sports USA" has nearly dropped it in favor of action games. And, as far as match organization is concerned, have they really come to terms with their rivalry with the CMP?

I get it that the polymer, hi-cap gun-makers are a big advertiser faction for American Rifleman, etc. and they need a "gun game" in which those guns can be competitive.

To express my concerns, i just wrote the following letter to NRA:

"I am grateful to receive your Shooting Sports USA magazine. But, I am dismayed by the total shift of pistol shooting coverage towards the action games. Honestly, you've lost me as a competitive shooter.
I think it is a big mistake to lock Precision Pistol into the obsolete 2700 framework. It is killing the sport. For the "45 stage", NRA has lost sight that 1) the 1911 is no longer the US service pistol, and hasn't been for some decades, and 2) even if it was, the current rules are out of touch with the spirit of the "service pistol" intent of the third stage of the 2700. Red dot sights, light triggers, even adjustable target sights, are contrary to the spirit of the game. The 45 stage, as is, should be dropped or radically changed to get back to the idea of a service pistol match.

Precision pistol is a tough game, and should remain as such.

Perhaps a good "fun" match would be a "Vintage Service Pistol" Precision match, with a cutoff of, say, V-E day for what would be allowed. This has been a successful approach to rifle."

I would like to emphasize that I am a Life Member, and fully support the organization. But, they're not supporting pistol near to what they do for rifle.

I'll let y'all know if I get a reply....

Jim
 
Unfortunately all forms of bullseye competition have taken a back step to the the action games.

We have a match, Classic Pistol, that may suit your preference. Pre 1946 pistols, either original or modern replica with original type sights and grips. There are also divisions for .22 rimfire and “open” which includes everything else.

For the 1911 WWII GI grips and sights must be used.

Course of Fire:

2 X B18 targets 18” appertains centre to centre top of target 6’ above ground.

All shooting starts with the gun held at 45 degrees in master hand, support hand above shoulder level.

10 yards.

String one: 3 rounds each target, freestyle, 8 seconds.
String two: 3 rounds each target strong hand only 8 seconds.
String three: 3 rounds each target weak hand only 8 seconds.

Score and patch.

String four: 6 rounds left target in 4 seconds freestyle.
String five: 6 rounds right target in 4 seconds freestyle.

Score and patch.

25 yards. (All freestyle).

String six: 6 rounds left target in 15 seconds.
String seven: 6 rounds right target 15 seconds.
String eight: 3 rounds each target 15 seconds.

I shot the score sheet below a few weeks ago with my Astra Constable .32 Auto in modern replica division. I also shoot my Victory .38 S&W revolver in classic category.

If this is not sufficient for you we also have a 90 round service match shot at 7, 10, 25 and 50 yards. The rules are more complex and can be found at https://www.pistolnz.org.nz/files/S...iles/Service_Rules_May_2016_Reformattedv2.pdf
 

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It's a tactical world out there today , most of the young "guns" are interested in the action shooting sports , Bullseye / Precision is a somewhat dull sport ... I competed in Bullseye for about 20 years and always enjoyed the accuracy and precision aspect of the sport .
But it is a hard sport to master , taking years of hard dedicated practice.
Most young people want instant gratification ...Bullseye will not give you that so they go to the Dump the intire magazine in 3 seconds and run to the next target sport...no time or discipline to learn how to shoot the X-rings out of a target .
You can't blame the NRA for covering and promoting what's popular.
My local radio station does the same thing ... they play hippity hop and rap music because it's popular with the younger generation now .
Gary
 
I was at Camp Perry, Ohio in August 2019 for the Springfield Rifle matches. Listening to the conversation, the NRA will do what it will, but the shooters are still going to Camp Perry. Simply, shooting at Camp Perry is not the same as shooting some other venue or range.

The real 2700 matches will "always" be at Camp Perry in the minds of shooters. Anything else is just the 'upstart' NRA matches held some other place.

I enjoy shooting 2700 matches, but age has taken my scoring ability. I've broke 800 a couple of times with 22LR. Twice I shot 790+ scores with a 45 but never broke 800. Now a good day is individual matches over 700. Shooting for fun at a local range is not the same as shooting a real match, but it doesn't cost $15 for gas and $25 for match fees to frustrate myself. There are no young shooters at matches, just faltering old guys. Maybe the same thing is happening at the NRA.
 
I recently "retired" from being an IDPA Match Director (for 15 yrs) and the push to speed up the shooting and make it easier is truly pervasive in the shooting sports. IDPA started as very different than USPSA (IPSC) and emphasized defensive tactics, using actual carry guns. No more! The revised IDPA rules allow "run and gun" tactics, and even "stock" pistols can be highly modified. Cover has been de-emphasized, and speed emphasized.
Like it or not, NRA is just being swept along in the frenzy of blasting away with the latest high-tech guns at relatively easy targets with scoring that emphasizes speed over accuracy. I too, am an old dinosaur that really enjoyed precision shooting at small targets with par time scoring, like bullseye and PPC.
 
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Jim,

To a degree, I have to agree with you.

However, you need to direct your concerns to: 1) the NRA Pistol Committee, 2) the NRA Pistol Rules Committee, then 3) to the NRA Competition Department.

Basically, you will find that the NRA will lean towards where they can obtain sponsor support. While at the Competitors' awards dinner (Long Range @Camp Atterbury) this was pointed out. It is apparently difficult for the NRA to get financial support for the traditional matches, corporations support events that (directly or indirectly) generate profits.

Seriously, when have you most recently seen a handgun promoted for use in a 2700 match? The current selling points seem to be focused on self-defense and the run and gun games. Look again at ammunition, how easy is it to find standard velocity 22s, or mid-range 38 Special wadcutters, or even 45ACP SWC target loads?

Take a look at the handguns. When was the last time you saw a handgun touted for it's 50 yard line accuracy? What is being produced for sale that is comparable to the: High Standard line, the Colt Woodsman series, the affordable Smith 41s and 46s, the K22s & K38s, the Colt National Match or Smith 52, or a real bullseye Colt Gold Cup?

Look at the current competition courses of fire and you will see that virtually everything is structured to the crowd that wants immediate gratification, not those willing to work their way up!
 
I pulled this article up from a couple years ago. At the time, I had similar thoughts to the OP and felt this would help, or at least that the NRA was trying. Separate divisions for .22 LR and single caliber revolvers, a separate iron sight division, and a two handed division for neophytes to learn the game are all positive steps forward.

Shooting Sports USA | 2017 NRA Precision Pistol Program Update

However, unless Bullseye type competition is pushed at both the national and local levels, it won't really gain much traction, at least with the younger crowd - and that may not happen anyway.

Let's talk about why for a minute.

In the 1980s, I started out shooting bullseye postal matches in the police department's 25 yard basement range, because it was the competitive format that was available. In the 1990s I got involved in practical pistol shooting, and did well in large part because of my Bullseye experience and the ability to shoot well in slow, timed and rapid fire.

However, I'm pushing 55 real hard and I'm not as competitive in practical shooting as I used to be, not because I don't shoot as well, but because I'm just not as fast an agile as I used to be. In some practical shooting stages, moving fast and being agile matters. It won't get better in my 60s and 70s.

That's aside from the still continuing problem of race guns that bear about as much relationship to a "practical" handgun as a NASCAR race car does to a street legal sports car, the expense involved, and the need to have a competitive gun to be competitive as a shooter

To recap, I started out in bullseye because it was what was available, I migrated to practical pistol shooting as it was fun and more or less job related, and I'll finish up in Bullseye competition as it emphasizes accurate shooting without movement and agility.

---

My average range trip still involves speed drills with my concealed carry handgun, but it also involves 30-60 rounds each through one of my High Standard Victors, my Model 14 and Kimber Gold Match II fired in Bullseye format.

In contrast, the folks I see today at many ranges are younger people who show up with a handgun and a box of ammo and are done and gone in about 15-20 minutes, compared to about 2 to 3 hours for me.

Time may well be a factor for young shooters, especially if they don't regard it as an entire morning or afternoon activity. In addition, ranges that charge a fixed fee for unlimited time make far more money off those shooters than they do me if there is a wait for ranger space, and there's an incentive to focus on activities that feed those rapid fire habits. Ranges that charge an hourly rate and limit you to one hour (like the NRA headquarters range in Fairfax VA) favor and encourage, intentionally or otherwise, a shoot fast and go home model, and they start breeding that behavior.

There's also ego and expectations aspect to it for new shooters. Shooting fast but badly at large targets is the norm for many younger shooters. They have no idea that pistols and revolvers can be shot with great accuracy, and that they can be fired with both speed and accuracy, something Bullseye teaches. Thus a new shooter firing rapidly at B-27 sized targets, and even better zombie type targets with no scoring rings, and at close ranges of 3-7 yards can quickly match the (very low) level of skill of his or her peers and feel like he or she is competent with a handgun.

For example, last summer I was at an indoor range in the twin cities and was shooting next to a group of young shooters shooting at a B-27 style target at 5 yards and putting wide patterns on the target at high speed. One of them was a police officer extolling the virtues of shooting fast. He noted me shooting bullseye with my High Standard Victor and commented to both me and his peers that "we're not into that accuracy stuff".

I smiled and when I'd finished that target, I ran a target down range to 15 yards and then proceeded to do double taps and failure to stop drills with three magazines and my concealed carry 9mm 1911 - much faster and with far, far more accuracy than he'd managed with his tactical tupperware. When I was done, he looked at the target and at me. I told him "It's all accuracy stuff", reloaded and holstered by 1911 and went back to Bullseye shooting.

The point here being that the odds are high that he won't try Bullseye shooting anytime soon, even though it would definitely help his accuracy and his potential survival in his job. He probably won't try it as he probably would not enjoy having his *** handed to him by a bunch of old guys every match.

I do however hope he absorbed the lesson that there are an awful lot of people out there in the real world who shoot faster AND more accurately than he does and that his occupation as a police officer in no way qualifies him as an expert with a handgun.

That said, that police officer and his friends are 20 something now. In 30 years Bullseye will start looking much more appealing to them. Bullseye may now in reality be a sport for older shooters, but there will always be older shooters.
 
A sign of the times and the aging process

Yes...I agree it is totally different to observe "spray and pray" and mag dumps at local range.

My "kids" (now in their late 30's, 40's) also look on with dismay and still shoot for accuracy, control so "mastery of the craft" so to speak.

But to speak only for myself...at my age approaching 75, the knees and other body parts don't seem to allow for even prone position anymore with the M1 Garand, and I prefer a bench for pistol/revolver shooting for fun, as opposed to standing for hours.

Do I still enjoy the shooting sports? You betcha! I rue the day when I can't see or something that curtails this great, lifelong hobby, but I guess I am seeing younger, more agile shooters doing just what I did eons ago..........enjoying their hobby, sport, in a manner acceptable to them.

I remember WWII vets who were my "superiors" mostly E-7's when in the Army (1966) telling me that that lousy M14 wasn't really as sturdy a battle rifle as the venerable (to them) M1 Garand! Then came that transition to the Mattel Toy and we had our chance to look down our noses.

I too fully support the NRA, but I can see where they need to go with the flow to stay alive.......just like us vets of any era..we may not have personally chosen the weapon Uncle issued us, but it fits the times.

Just an old codgers take on the situation.
 
BB57 said:
I pulled this article up from a couple years ago. At the time, I had similar thoughts to the OP and felt this would help, or at least that the NRA was trying. Separate divisions for .22 LR and single caliber revolvers, a separate iron sight division, and a two handed division for neophytes to learn the game are all positive steps forward.

Shooting Sports USA | 2017 NRA Precision Pistol Program Update

However, unless Bullseye type competition is pushed at both the national and local levels, it won't really gain much traction, at least with the younger crowd - and that may not happen anyway.

Let's talk about why for a minute.

In the 1980s, I started out shooting bullseye postal matches in the police department's 25 yard basement range, because it was the competitive format that was available. In the 1990s I got involved in practical pistol shooting, and did well in large part because of my Bullseye experience and the ability to shoot well in slow, timed and rapid fire.

However, I'm pushing 55 real hard and I'm not as competitive in practical shooting as I used to be, not because I don't shoot as well, but because I'm just not as fast an agile as I used to be. In some practical shooting stages, moving fast and being agile matters. It won't get better in my 60s and 70s.

That's aside from the still continuing problem of race guns that bear about as much relationship to a "practical" handgun as a NASCAR race car does to a street legal sports car, the expense involved, and the need to have a competitive gun to be competitive as a shooter

To recap, I started out in bullseye because it was what was available, I migrated to practical pistol shooting as it was fun and more or less job related, and I'll finish up in Bullseye competition as it emphasizes accurate shooting without movement and agility.

---

My average range trip still involves speed drills with my concealed carry handgun, but it also involves 30-60 rounds each through one of my High Standard Victors, my Model 14 and Kimber Gold Match II fired in Bullseye format.

In contrast, the folks I see today at many ranges are younger people who show up with a handgun and a box of ammo and are done and gone in about 15-20 minutes, compared to about 2 to 3 hours for me.

Time may well be a factor for young shooters, especially if they don't regard it as an entire morning or afternoon activity. In addition, ranges that charge a fixed fee for unlimited time make far more money off those shooters than they do me if there is a wait for ranger space, and there's an incentive to focus on activities that feed those rapid fire habits. Ranges that charge an hourly rate and limit you to one hour (like the NRA headquarters range in Fairfax VA) favor and encourage, intentionally or otherwise, a shoot fast and go home model, and they start breeding that behavior.

There's also ego and expectations aspect to it for new shooters. Shooting fast but badly at large targets is the norm for many younger shooters. They have no idea that pistols and revolvers can be shot with great accuracy, and that they can be fired with both speed and accuracy, something Bullseye teaches. Thus a new shooter firing rapidly at B-27 sized targets, and even better zombie type targets with no scoring rings, and at close ranges of 3-7 yards can quickly match the (very low) level of skill of his or her peers and feel like he or she is competent with a handgun.

For example, last summer I was at an indoor range in the twin cities and was shooting next to a group of young shooters shooting at a B-27 style target at 5 yards and putting wide patterns on the target at high speed. One of them was a police officer extolling the virtues of shooting fast. He noted me shooting bullseye with my High Standard Victor and commented to both me and his peers that "we're not into that accuracy stuff".

I smiled and when I'd finished that target, I ran a target down range to 15 yards and then proceeded to do double taps and failure to stop drills with three magazines and my concealed carry 9mm 1911 - much faster and with far, far more accuracy than he'd managed with his tactical tupperware. When I was done, he looked at the target and at me. I told him "It's all accuracy stuff", reloaded and holstered by 1911 and went back to Bullseye shooting.

The point here being that the odds are high that he won't try Bullseye shooting anytime soon, even though it would definitely help his accuracy and his potential survival in his job. He probably won't try it as he probably would not enjoy having his *** handed to him by a bunch of old guys every match.

I do however hope he absorbed the lesson that there are an awful lot of people out there in the real world who shoot faster AND more accurately than he does and that his occupation as a police officer in no way qualifies him as an expert with a handgun.

That said, that police officer and his friends are 20 something now. In 30 years Bullseye will start looking much more appealing to them. Bullseye may now in reality be a sport for older shooters, but there will always be older shooters.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. The problem is that now 20 something year old will never build the skill required to excel at bullseye.

The paradigm of mag dumps at 3 yards just does not lead to the trigger control and overall skillset, and knowledge needed to be competitive in precision shooting.

Perhaps a way forward is for the action sports to include more precision stages in their courses of fire? 25-50 yard "head" shots? Maybe even...gasp...one handed???

Perhaps if there was more accuracy required in the action games, some of the youngsters would grasp and rise to the challenge of that???


It seems to me the fundamentals of marksmanship have been de-emphasized. There is a certain skillset required to present from a holster and do a rapid mag dump from the 3 yard line. Mastering that skill is a small part though of truly mastering the handgun.
 
My bullseye shooting background started in 1971 and ended in 2006 due to physical problems. Back in the early 70's bullseye pistol shooting was encouraged and highly supported by the military, as well as, the police to some extent. When that support and huge participation ended the participation began a sharp decline. That decline has continued to today. It takes a special person to dedicate themselves to the sport without any outside support. With the fast pace society today, many younger folks don't seem to be able to make that much time and money available. Golf seems to be declining as well among younger people. It also requires time and money. Over the years, I participated in a limited amount of other pistol disciplines, including PPC, IMSHA, hunter's pistol, international pistol, steel challenge, etc. The basics that were ingrained in me from bullseye match shooting have served me well.

Now to the point. Since civilians now make up the bulk of bullseye pistol shooters, I think if the sport is to continue to exist, the competitors need to bring new blood into the sport. One-on-one is the best way. Competitors must also contribute to organizing and running matches. Everyone likes to shoot, but no one likes to do stats, call matches, order targets, etc. It is really easy to say that the fault is the NRA, when the NRA has added numerous "side matches" over the years, from revolver to rimfire to those for plastic pistols, etc. The NRA has spent quite a bit of money running the matches at Camp Perry each year. The entry fees don't begin to cover the costs. The average NRA member couldn't care less about "precision pistol shooting", so I would imagine if there was a membership vote, there would not be any more national pistol matches. The burden, for the continuation of the sport, rests squarely on the shoulders of individual competitors.
 
I miss the Bullseye shooting competitions too. But it's a changing world and the NRA is changing with it, not leading the change.
When I was in charge of our department firearms training I included some Bullseye type shooting scenarios and we had a Bullseye Team.
That was 10 years ago though.
Fortunately for me, I have my own range on my property and can still shoot Bullseye here. One day my target revolvers will be looked at like flintlocks.
 
moosedog said:
I miss the Bullseye shooting competitions too. But it's a changing world and the NRA is changing with it, not leading the change.
When I was in charge of our department firearms training I included some Bullseye type shooting scenarios and we had a Bullseye Team.
That was 10 years ago though.
Fortunately for me, I have my own range on my property and can still shoot Bullseye here. One day my target revolvers will be looked at like flintlocks.
Click to expand...

It's funny you say that. I still including some DA revolver shooting in my training.

The young'ens increasingly just look amazed that anyone would still shoot a J or K frame snub much less be able to hit with it.

The times are changing for sure.
 
BB57 said:
........I smiled and when I'd finished that target, I ran a target down range to 15 yards and then proceeded to do double taps and failure to stop drills with three magazines and my concealed carry 9mm 1911 - much faster and with far, far more accuracy than he'd managed with his tactical tupperware. When I was done, he looked at the target and at me. I told him "It's all accuracy stuff", reloaded and holstered by 1911 and went back to Bullseye shooting........
Click to expand...

Nicely written! Love the story quoted and especially the phrase tactical tupperware. - I'm borrowing that one!
 
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Even the SASS version of Cowboy Action Shooting has gotten the speed virus. The Cowboy Chronicle recently published a suggestion to club match directors that stage all scenarios be so arranged that at least half of all match participants shoot a "clean match." A clean match is defined as one with no targets missed. Fortunately, NCOWS and Grand Army of the Frontier organizations have not yet gone that route. I suppose that the mandated drive toward easy perfection started with skeet and trap being fired with a mounted shotgun!
 
OKFC05 said:
I recently "retired" from being an IDPA Match Director (for 15 yrs) and the push to speed up the shooting and make it easier is truly pervasive in the shooting sports. IDPA started as very different than USPSA (IPSC) and emphasized defensive tactics, using actual carry guns. No more! The revised IDPA rules allow "run and gun" tactics, and even "stock" pistols can be highly modified. Cover has been de-emphasized, and speed emphasized.
Like it or not, NRA is just being swept along in the frenzy of blasting away with the latest high-tech guns at relatively easy targets with scoring that emphasizes speed over accuracy. I too, am an old dinosaur that really enjoyed precision shooting at small targets with par time scoring, like bullseye and PPC.
Click to expand...

I recently quit a local club where this has gotten out of hand.
Bullseye had been dropped long ago. But, they did have an IDPA and USPSA certified range officer running those matches. They pressured him to 1) speed up the matches, and 2) stop "DQing" members for blatant safety violations. So, he quit, too.

NRA runs a myriad of rifle matches, and have figured out how to create accessible competitions that allow new shooters to get involved, but also transition into other areas of increased difficulty and/or specialization.

Sadly, these young shooters who just dump magazine after magazine of 9mm into a zombie target 10 feet in front of them are just ingraining poor shooting habits they'll likely never overcome.

Jim
 
Great thread. Speaking as a high master bullseye shooter I'm wondering what type of turnout the NRA will get with Precision Pistol being moved to Indiana. CMP has already set up an alternative 2700 championship at Camp Perry next year. CMP matches seem to be thriving; the .22 Rimfire distinguished, along with rule changes to the service pistol matches, are a great idea that's bringing more shooters to the matches.
Bob
 
S&W38 said:
Even the SASS version of Cowboy Action Shooting has gotten the speed virus. The Cowboy Chronicle recently published a suggestion to club match directors that stage all scenarios be so arranged that at least half of all match participants shoot a "clean match." A clean match is defined as one with no targets missed. Fortunately, NCOWS and Grand Army of the Frontier organizations have not yet gone that route. I suppose that the mandated drive toward easy perfection started with skeet and trap being fired with a mounted shotgun!
Click to expand...

The thing that always stuck in my craw about CAS shooting is the effort and emphasis put on period correct dress, but then allowing a floor of 60 for the power factor and just 400 fps for velocity.

That's:

- a .32-20 77 gr bullet at just 780 fps;
- a .32-20 100 gr bullet at just 600 fps;
- a .38 Short Colt 130 gr bullet at 461 fps; or
- a .38 Long Colt or .38 Special 158 gr bullet at just 400 fps (velocity constrained with a PF of 63.2).

Back in the day in a revolver:
- the .32-20 drove a 100 gr bullet at 1000 fps.
- the .38 Short Colt fired a 130 gr bullet at 770 fps; and
- the .38 Long Colt fired a 170 grain bullet at 710 fps.

In short, a cowboy back in the day would have had no issues wearing rubber soled boots, but he would have found the anemic CAS level cartridges to be totally unsatisfactory.

When it came to the one thing in realism that actually mattered, CAS dropped the ball. Those ridiculously low power factor and velocity limits are where the speed virus started in CAS.
 
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