Small Female Officer and Glock vs M&P

There's nothing wrong with the old 9mm.........I'm surprised it's not authorized as part of the "small stature" alternate weapons.

When I worked armed security some of the female guards had issues with the G22 and the .40 round........

.357SIG and .40S&W are two calibers that usually aren't well suited for beginners, especially of the small statured female persuasion.

There are tons of officers who barely qualify with their duty weapons due to caliber and/or frame size not fitting their hands. Makes you wonder how well they'll work that pistol in a fire fight with fear and adrenalin coursing through their bodies?

Sure more training would probably help, but most departments around here operate on a shoestring budget at best, with extra training ammo and range time not being a top priority. It would be better if the individual officer started out with a gun and caliber that is not followed by a tough learning curve, then move up in caliber later if they so choose after fundamentals are second nature.

I wish more departments would realize that opening up the approved gun list and allowing the 9mm to be a viable option would help qualification scores to go up, which promotes the officers confidence in themselves and their abilities.

While I have no hard data to back it up, I can only imagine that there have been officers killed or badly injured in a firefight because they weren't able to shoot their issued duty guns to their own personal full potential.

I don't know if your Dept. requires only Glocks or M&Ps but my best friend, who has very small hands, just bought a Kahr P45 after saying that my M&P (and my 1911s) were too big for him. The Kahr pistols are great for people with small hands. Just a thought.

oldman45 said:

Sorry but I have to say that if she cannot handle the gun, what is she going to do when up against a larger, disorderly person or an irate spouse during a domestic problem?

While practice, practice and more practice can help with the firearm issue, she will be on the streets alone and backup is not always available.

I had to pull a large drunken man off a 5'4" officer before he could choke her to death.

My large size has kept me from having to go hands on many times. A small framed officer, male or female, is going to be challenged more than a person of size.

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You beat me to it. If she (or he) is too "small in stature" (PC word for short), then they should seek other employment. Bring back the minimum height requirements. 5'9 is a reasonable height for a cop to be. If her hands are too small to handle a Glock 19, I would imagine her other physical attributes are not up to the task. You think she is capable of wrestling with a drunk without help? Being a cop is a physical job. Physical presence alone has calmed down many a situation. I have no problem with women being cops, but to have to bend over backwards to accomodate them is just ridiculous. Seriously, who here would want to ride with someone so small, that the Glock 19 is uncomfortable? I have also seen very small and weak officers get tossed around. On the NYPD, they usually were taken off patrol and put inside where they couldn't get hurt. And many of those were males. A 5'2 police officer does NOT instill a command presence.

kbm6893 said:

You beat me to it. If she (or he) is too "small in stature" (PC word for short), then they should seek other employment. Bring back the minimum height requirements. 5'9 is a reasonable height for a cop to be. If her hands are too small to handle a Glock 19, I would imagine her other physical attributes are not up to the task. You think she is capable of wrestling with a drunk without help? Being a cop is a physical job. Physical presence alone has calmed down many a situation. I have no problem with women being cops, but to have to bend over backwards to accomodate them is just ridiculous. Seriously, who here would want to ride with someone so small, that the Glock 19 is uncomfortable? I have also seen very small and weak officers get tossed around. On the NYPD, they usually were taken off patrol and put inside where they couldn't get hurt. And many of those were males. A 5'2 police officer does NOT instill a command presence.

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First a disclaimer-I am not law enforcement, so I do not wish to step on any toes with this post.

I feel this must be shared, because fact as I have observed is regardless of a person's stature no two unrelated people have the exact same size of hand.


This fact was borne out when me and two other friends went gun shopping before Christmas.All three of us are between 5'11" to 5'9" in height, and we spent about an hour at the counter trying on a 1911, a Sig P226, Beretta PX4, Ruger SR40,Glock 17 Gen 4, and a Springfield XDM.

The only weapon we all agreed on hand fit was the 1911. I have hands big enough that handling a Beretta 92 feels right at home for me and the Gen 4 Glock did not work for my hands. I could reach the trigger and controls adequately but it did not point well for my hands.

When holding the pistol naturally it pointed off-center with my hand in a slight 'h' grip.If I was forced to carry it I could probably adjust well enough to shoot it adequately at the range, but when the adrenaline pumps under a quick draw situation forget about it.There won't be time to 'correct' the grip at a two way range.

Conversely my pro-Glock friend held the G-17 quite nicely but hated the grip of pistols that felt good to my hands.The only pistol in the case we both could agree to like was the Sig P226 and the 1911.

The other pal who is a complete newbie to pistols liked the 1911 , the XDm and the Sig , but couldn't work with anything else in the case.

Experience #2-I took a friend and his girlfriend to the range for the first time. The pistol being used was my Beretta 92, and I never hand any of my weapons off to shoot before showing the shooter how to safe and clear the weapon. After demonstrating the safety procedures I stepped back to have her practice the steps....whereupon she tilted the gun up at the ceiling at an odd angle several times.

I came up thinking she didn't understand how to clear it. The reason she tilted the 92F upward was because her hands were far to small to allow her to pull the slide back holding it in the firing hand as I can.Her thumb was nowhere near the slide release and she couldn't physically reach the trigger on the Beretta in double action mode no matter how she tried to grip the gun. It occured to me then that it was wise she never joined the military as there wasn't a snowballs chance in Hades she could even grip the pistol,much less shoot it in a life or death situation.

With that knowledge in mind I packed up the gear and stopped by the gun counter adjacent to the range to see what backstrap size on the M&P did fit her hand. Turned out the small backstrap insert was the perfect size for the lady to reach the trigger.

I learned a good lesson from that range trip;the size of the gun matters.Had my friends girl showed up in the Air Force for M-9 quals she would be a no go.Even if she passed the qualifier course there is no way she could draw and shoot the pistol under combat stress.

I could spend a year trying to teach her how to shoot an M9 , but it would be wasted time. The gun does not fit her and no amount of instruction can change the laws of physics.Great instruction can equal a nice score on a firing range, but under stress one defaults to a position that fits naturally. Not good news for someone who has to concentrate to shoot a pistol accurately on account of it not being a proper grip size.

I was an Law Enforcement firearms instructor in the early 90's I trained local LEO's in various PD's. A chief asked to me to train his personal on the Sig P-220 he wanted to make the transition from S&W revolvers. The question he asked me do I think the female officers would be able to handle the auto 45acp I told him with practice they would. To make a long story short the Female officers Improved there scores with 45 auto better than with the revolver. Some of these female officers were petiet and did a excellent job in qualifiying with the 45 auto.

It might be more merciful to let her fail and get into a profession better suited for her physical tools.

Added: When we went to the G22 in the mid 90's, we had many officers who couldn't handle it. /sigghhh
They were allowed to qualify with and carry the Smith 3913. It quickly became a target of ridicule and showed the lack of skill, dedication and ability of the officer. Needless to say, most quickly upped their skill level to handle the G22.
Peer pressure was the answer to making them actually meet the job requirements.

This is not an anti-female comment. Anyone who can't perform needs to go.
Sadly my "Chief" for my last 7 years couldn't qualify with any gun during his career, but due to his political ties he always got "remedial training" from one of his croines where he passed every time.
He was as useful as udders on a bull.

I have watched in amazement the 5'2" 110 lb owner of karate gym I go to repeatedly take down of our local high school varsity wrestling team members who were 50+ lbs heavier. If this was your student, but just needed a different sized grip to qual, she would be one heck of a LEO.

As for a commanding presence, my uncle was narcotics in brooklyn ny. I once asked how he, who was 5'9" maybe 155 lbs could do this, he replied, 'it is amazing how fast most people give up when looking down the barrel of my gun'. Not wanting to take this thread off topic, hope you can find a good grip for her and let us know how it works out.

kbm6893 said:

You beat me to it. If she (or he) is too "small in stature" (PC word for short), then they should seek other employment. Bring back the minimum height requirements. 5'9 is a reasonable height for a cop to be. If her hands are too small to handle a Glock 19, I would imagine her other physical attributes are not up to the task. You think she is capable of wrestling with a drunk without help? Being a cop is a physical job. Physical presence alone has calmed down many a situation. I have no problem with women being cops, but to have to bend over backwards to accomodate them is just ridiculous. Seriously, who here would want to ride with someone so small, that the Glock 19 is uncomfortable? I have also seen very small and weak officers get tossed around. On the NYPD, they usually were taken off patrol and put inside where they couldn't get hurt. And many of those were males. A 5'2 police officer does NOT instill a command presence.

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Nope height doesn't always matter. A few times I have seen the female MA's have issues here they are quite taller than I am but they are very soft spoken. That hassle is just issuing a traffic ticket. I'm 5'4" and I find that when I use my "man voice" people tend to listen. Just ask my husband he has seen me in action.

mrs_keck10 said:

Nope height doesn't always matter. A few times I have seen the female MA's have issues here they are quite taller than I am but they are very soft spoken. That hassle is just issuing a traffic ticket. I'm 5'4" and I find that when I use my "man voice" people tend to listen. Just ask my husband he has seen me in action.

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Question: Did you have to pass the same tests with the same standards as a male? Again, I have NO problem with women cops, as long as they are held to the same standards as men. When I went through the academy, women didn't have to do the same amount of pushups or situps as men did. They even got more time to complete the 1.5 mile run. I know men inherently have more upper body strength, but I've seen women smoke the men on the PT test. It can be done.

kbm6893 said:

Question: Did you have to pass the same tests with the same standards as a male? Again, I have NO problem with women cops, as long as they are held to the same standards as men. When I went through the academy, women didn't have to do the same amount of pushups or situps as men did. They even got more time to complete the 1.5 mile run. I know men inherently have more upper body strength, but I've seen women smoke the men on the PT test. It can be done.

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Women are not held to the same standards but in boot camp I was treated more harshly than the men it actually weeded out a few who couldn't handle the mental or physical stress and to this day I outperform my husband at the gym with a higher body fat count and less height. You don't have to make the standards the same because I don't give a **** about how buff I am I am not going to outrun a fit guy that's 5'9" in a 1.5 mile run but I can probably stay on my feet longer grappling because women have a lower center of gravity. That is the problem with "standardizing" you take one group and design everything around them where you should be training in strengths. I'm fast in a short distance but my genetic build makes me more stable for dodging obstacles and doing agility training because of my low center of gravity but you catch me in a long run and well my inseam is a 30 making my stride very short....then again if it were up to me I would be training for long range rifle use.

IMHO, except for a couple of young ladies that I know who are pretty well as big as I am (I'm 6'1", and about 320# - these two are quite a bit lighter), presuming identical physical abilities probably isn't a good idea....

Krav Maga or some other martial arts skills can cover most of the physical differences, IMHO, anyway, with the exception of sheer size issues.

All of that said, the job can be physically demanding, and some mix of endurance and being able to defend oneself and/or take a punch is important. (A good vest is a big help there, too. It will absorb a lot of punishment from purely physical contact - body parts or impact weapons.)

(The Township has a very small female Officer who's just a bit over 40 - she mostly works inside as a Detective. Whenever I see her in full uniform, I tend to react as "wow, she really looks frumpy!". Then the brain kicks in - she's got a vest on, and has her hair tied back and out of the way. I wouldn't want to tangle with her, even though I'm considerably bigger. Running gag - when I pinned on my first badge, she was still in diapers.)

It all boils down to training, I think.... There may be more of a problem for the guys - the smaller ones seem to get into more fights. I think there's a basic "don't fight with the girls" thing mostly still working, but the "I can take that little guy" attitude's out there, too.... You can train around that....

Decades ago, a friend of mine (6'2", 250# or thereabouts at the time) was assigned a very small female partner and a Volvo set up as a cage car. (The car thing was a test.) The two of them had to grab up a belligerent drunk, who was a tad bigger than my friend. They managed to wrestle him to the car. When he saw the car, and took a good hard look at the female Officer, he calmly sat down in the back seat without incident. Apparently he figured it would take a couple guys his size to stuff him into that car, whereas with the pair of Officers he was dealing with, he'd very definitely get hurt a lot....

Anyway, it's not standardization, IMHO, as much as being able to put out a "presence". A guy like me only really has to stand there, other than when the drunk is in an uncooperative mood. A small female has to express "cooperate or it's going to take a while to heal", even if she has no intention of touching the guy.

Not perfect, but workable....

Regards,