I finally got back to the range yesterday and noticed something strange while firing my M&P 9mm. Prior to yesterday, I had only put about 20 rounds through the gun. Yesterday, I put over 50 through it and noticed that it seemed to be shooting low. I was firing at an 8 yard target and it was shooting about 5 inches lower than my aiming point. I was lining up the dots on the front sight with the dots on the rear sight so they were all in a horizontal row. Apparently, this makes it shoot low. To get the rounds to go where I wanted them to go, I had to make a "pyramid" by putting the front dot on top of the rear sight dots.

Is this normal? What should the sight picture be?

You had it correct the first time, your dots should line up horizontal. The best way to check your sights is to rest the gun on some type of rest such as sand bags or a pistol rest. That way you know for sure if the gun sights are off or the shooter is off. I don't think even the pros use free hand shooting to adjust a sight handguns or rifles.

It's normal for people who are still getting used to "combat tupperware" and are breaking down on the shot due to not being familiar with the long trigger pull.

While it is possible the gun is defective, the greater likelyhood is that you are moving the gun. Concentrate on follow through. Dry firing helps. Use a paper plate as the bullseye, and quit trying to pull the trigger when the sights are "just right" on a tiny bull as this leads to yanking the trigger.

The normal sight picture is a normal "post" sight picture with the front sight same height as the rear, and equal space on both sides. The bullet should strike at the top of the front sight, more or less. The dots are for quick shots, not precision.

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Science plus Art

Maybe it's just me, but... every fixed-sight gun with 3-dot sight setup I have ever fired has required that the center dot be lined up with the side dots, and that the center dot cover the intended POI. Use the 6 o'clock hold, and I'm shooting low.

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Pisgah

I sympathize--I've had students that had tried for months to get used to a Glock, M&P, or similar striker fired pistol, and just swore up and down the pistol was defective.
One student was hitting consistently a foot low at 5 yds, I mean a decent group but all equally low. I finally had the student hold a sight picture with finger out of triggerguard, and I reached around and pinched the trigger to fire it: the bullet hit dead center.

Some who use my guns want the sight "fixed" because my gun "shoots low." I won't let them mess with the sights, and by the end of the day, "the gun gets better."

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Science plus Art

I agree, when the dots line up you then have a "post" sight picture. I always try without much success to get people to shoot from a rest, verify the sights are correct, which they usually are pretty close on fixed sight guns I have seen, not all, but most.

Forgot to mention in my original post that after firing about 40 rounds through it, I knelt down and rested the gun on the shooting platform and fired off five shots. Real nice grouping but still about 5 inches low. Would putting on aftermarket sights fix the problem?

That seems pretty low at 8 yards, but I would set something up where the barrel and the butt of the gun are both supported, then test fire it, before I thought about spending money. If it is still that far off, contact S&W about sending it back for evaluation.

Try this. RIGHT CLICK.

perfect sight.jpg

Not unless you purposely get a shorter front sight to compensate for your flinching. You are "pushing" the shot in anticipation of recoil. Get some snap caps and have someone load your mag at the range so you are not expecting it. I guarantee you will see your weapon get pushed down.

Yes, you are right on the flinch. I go to a really busy indoor range, with lots of new bee's there, they don't realize they are out of ammo, and give the extra trigger pull and its a mega flinch party. It happen to everyone, you just got to work through it. I just like to use the pistol rest trick just to prove that the gun is doing it's part.

That's a great picture, where can I get that. I like to print that and stick it in my range bag for reference when needed.

With my Tru Glo and new trigger I am perfect and that is a great example for others to follow, at least for me after today shooting through the same hole 6 times in the X of a bullseye!

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59,M&P9,40,40C,357,(2)45,G26

It is my understanding and experience that the M&P line uses a combat sight picture (#3) and the front dot should be placed on the intended POI as opposed to a 6'O'clock hold. On a combat pistol if either #1 or #2 sight pictures are used then the POI will be low.

One thing that's interesting about the talk about lining up the dots vs. the top of the posts is that almost all of the 3-dot systems seem to use the same dot size on the front & rear posts. This makes the front dot seem smaller as it's further away and and also encounters parallax issues. This naturally means that there's inherent "slop" if using the dots to line up the image instead of the tops of the posts. However, with my older eyes & corrective lenses it's nearly impossible to get a decent image if I focus on the front sight so I have to focus on the target and use the dot's & out of focus sights to get things lines up. At normal defensive distances this is more than accurate enough for CoM hits.

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so you want that #3 picture right? Because the other day when i was shooting..every single shot was low. So i tired to fix it....

I fixed it by almost dipping the back end of the gun down so the front sight went above the back sight lines and i was dead on....it was strange

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M&P9 FS APEX Kit

No, the M&P, just like most guns, is intended to be used with sight picture #2 from the post above. This has been tested by many on this site from a bench rest and found to be true. However, the difference between #2 and #3 is so small as to be insignificant for self defense shooting.

Chances are this was you and not the gun. Let me guess, you were shooting off hand and without a support, right?

The only way to test the accuracy of the gun is to shoot it from a bench rest. This helps eliminate the human element and any associated errors.

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Freedom isn't free.

A bench rest is the only way to check the sights, I've said it so many times my lips are chapped, but people still want to hand hold!!

I don't think that they "want" to, they just do. Further, it's really common to blame the equipment for poor performance. Not because a person thinks they are perfect, it's just normal to look for exterior sources of error. So, we blame the gun, the sights, the ammo for shots that consistently go where we don't intend.

Heavy triggers with a long pull, like the M&P, lend themselves to a slight flinch right at sear break. What's really amazing about people is that we can be very consistent with this. Thus, we shoot a group that is 1" in size, but low or low/left. Because the group is so small, it's only natural to think the problem is with the gun. I mean, if it were us, wouldn't the group be bigger? Unfortunately, that's not the case.

In more scientific terms, we tend to be repeatable, but not accurate due to a small flinch.

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Freedom isn't free.

Ya i haven't had a bench where i shoot so its hard to check the sights other then by hand but thats not the best way


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M&P9 FS APEX Kit

I've worked pretty hard at avoiding the flinch, with dry firing it looks like i have it under control and have improved my accuracy. Even still my shots are still a little off so I've tried shooting with both eyes open which does take a lot of getting used to but i shoot more accurately and am able to get back on target so much faster. For short range shooting it is way more effective for me than one eye only. Give it a try you might like it.

Good thoughts for sure!

I've been shooting since I was 10. i'm now 50. I earned several medals in the military for marksmanship. I'm not bragging. I just want to make clear that I know how to use a gun.
recently I bought a S&W Governor. and had the same issue as the Person who started this post, seems I could only hit the center if I made a pyramid instead of ( equal light, Equal height). so I put a bore sight laser on it and ligned up the sights. sure enough the laser was a good 2" low. the only way I could get the sights to line up with the laser Dot was to raise the front sight ( like a pyramid ). i've never seen this on a gun with fixed sights ? I wish I could return it.

If you've read this thread then you know my position on this already. So, I'm not going into it again.

However, assuming your gun is bad, you can return it. Call S&W. Tell them your gun has an issue. They will give you a FREE shipping label to send the gun back to them. It normally takea about 10 days to get the gun back in your hands. They will fix it as long as you own the gun. That's the beauty of buying a S&W, lifetime warranty.

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Freedom isn't free.

My guess is that you are not focusing on the front site, but rather on your target. This can cause you to dip the front sight as you look over it to the target. When you begin high this makes up for it. Once you have alignment bring focus to front sight with target blurry. Your eye/brain will keep you centered on the blurry target.

Sorry for the mix up, I was trying to add to the whole forum, not just to you specifically. I'm sure all the sight are the same so I doubt the gun is defective, just has a learning cure that I can't seem to grasp. so I don't care for it, but I do appreciate your quick response and feedback.
Thank you.

With my M&P9 and my eyes the dots do not line up and I end up with the pyramid effect as well. I focus on and square off the front sight with the rear sight and really pay no attention to the dots, probably atributable to firing military Beretta's and 1911's and our wheel guns. My POA floats between #2 and 3 depending on the ammo I am using and the available light (the old lights up sites up) since I shoot on an outdoor range.

Thank you for your Feedback. I searched all over the internet for anything that indicated that some guns are set up that way, but couldn't find anything. I guess it doesn't matter as long as I'm hitting the target.

Try blacking out the dots.

I find dots slow things.

You may well find that your shooting improves and your poi is where it's supposed to be.

"Dots" are for low light shooting at close quarters. In low light one can superimpose the front dot over the point of aim. For daylight shooting the front sight post centered and flush with the rear sight notch produces point of aim = point of impact hits.....without obscuring the intended impact point with the front sight post. If you look closely at the example of different sight pictures posted below and in post #14, sight alignment #2 and #3 produce the same result, it's just a matter of perspective, i.e. are you looking at the front sight post or the dots. :

I, too, have the same issue with shooting low when dots are lined up. My fix was to paint the entire front sight red/orange so I wouldn't notice the misalignment of the white dots.

Yes, even in broad daylight, I see the dots more than the entire post.

You can see that in the picture that the dots are lined up the top of the front sight post is below the rear sights. Where as when the top of the post is lined up correctly with the top of the rear sight, the dot on the front sight is higher than the dots on the rear sight (Pyramid).

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thanks I will try this and see if it helps. I also replaced the trigger with the Apex trigger. no more long squishy pull followed by a hard squeeze. I kept anticipating the bang , but instead would hit that wall, this caused me to jerk the gun, now I have very little play and a smooth 4 lbs trigger pull.

As stated in other places, some here, that MFG intended POI may vary a little from brand to brand. The method of 6 o'clock hold works better on like a rimfire 25 yard target, with the small bull. My Shield's POI is similar to yours, I find I do better with intending POI to be right at the top of the front sight blade. And yes, these are not intended to be target guns. Just getting to know where that particular POI is reassures the shooter just exactly what is going on.....

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CERAKOTE Svcs.
Class 01 FFL

My preference is to black out the dots on the rear sight and paint the front sight, dot and all, with florescent green paint. I prefer my rear sight to be black, but the paint on the front helps me to make certain where my front sight is on the target. These days, I am only interested in suitable accuracy for personal protection needs.

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So long ... Ken

I also prefer a plain black rear sight. I grew up shooting 1911s with Bomar sights, and I find dots on the rear sights to be a distraction. If you look at my recent post about my new PC Shield you will see that I swapped the FO sights for a set with a plain black rear sight and a night sight on the front

I can certainly achieve acceptable combat accuracy with three dot sights, but i get better accuracy without dots on the rear sight. Perhaps that is a personal limitation, but at this point in my shooting life I am an old dog who really has no desire to learn a new way.

I shoot with both eyes open, and when I train for combat shooting I try to focus entirely on the front sight, trusting that the rear sight will have acceptable (for combat accuracy) alignment purely from muscle memory. Using that method I have no issue keeping shots center mass even when firing very rapidly. 90%+ in the down zero ring at 30 feet won't win a bullseye match, but that is not the goal.

Valueman,

You said it much better than I, but you and I are on the same page!!

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So long ... Ken

Red,

Did you ever solve this issue? I have the exact same problem and recently started this thread about the issue. I found your thread doing a general web search.

Thanks.

Larry

I have a laser bore sight device for my 22 Compat. When turned on at 25 feet the red dot lines up as in sight picture #3.

You're supposed to shoot from the "wall".....take up and stage at the wall then squeeze to fire. Release just enough to reset to the "wall" and repeat. You don't fully release the trigger as you would with a revolver. The M&P foes not have a long trigger pull when the trigger is properly manipulated.

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Always had problems with the 3-dot setup. No so much for self defense, but for any kind of range work.
I totally black em out and seem to do much better. But I prefer to use the "Straight 8s" when I can find em. I can acquire my sight picture much quicker with the straight 8s.
They do take a little practice to get used to, but once that's done, they're quick to acquire. I really like em.