I ordered a M&P9 and now I read about all the accuracy issues. Wonderful!

M29since14 said:
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I am assuming that would be firing from a rest - or do you mean a machine-rest? Either way, it seems like a fair standard for a full-size, service-grade pistol.

I have an M&P9L. I am not sure how old it is, maybe 2 years or so. Just as a matter of curiosity, I took it along last evening on my weekly trip to the indoor range. I took three types of 9mm ammunition - a 124 FMJ (Winchester), a 124 JHP (Remington), and a 147 FMJ (Federal). In the case of my pistol, it would barely meet that standard at 50-feet for 5-rounds.

Before I bought the 9L I had a full-size M&P9. It was older, and it was even less accurate than the 9L.

I agree with what the writer above says about the M&P45. My FS M&P45 will shoot rings around any small-caliber M&P I have ever seen. It is a bit picky about ammunition owing to a tight chamber and short throat, but the gun DOES shoot. My M&P .357SIG is not a bad shooter, but nothing to crow about. The .45 is way out in front of it.

I like the M&P pistols in general, for what they are, but I cannot say I am happy with the 9mm and .40 caliber versions I have been around. JMHO, of course.
Click to expand...

Could you provide more specifics about the .40? I hear almost nothing but raves about the M&P40, and certainly haven't read anyone saying they are not happy with it. I'm not questioning your experience, I'm just interested in the details because I'm thinking about buying a M&P40, or possibly a M&P9 - but I'm leaning towards the 40 - shortly.
 
C4IGrant said:
... as someone that is a factory certified armorer, fixes M&P's, fits barrels to M&P's, has been shooting them since day 1 and speaks DIRECTLY to S&W Engineers about issues with the gun, trust me when I say that there are accuracy issues with SOME 9mm M&P's.
Click to expand...


Don't keep us in suspense!

With all of your S&W connections, tell us what the problem is, what to look for, and what the fix is.
 
C4IGrant said:
Don't know about the cavalry, but as someone that is a factory certified armorer, fixes M&P's, fits barrels to M&P's, has been shooting them since day 1 and speaks DIRECTLY to S&W Engineers about issues with the gun, trust me when I say that there are accuracy issues with SOME 9mm M&P's.

For the record, my personal M&P FS 9mm shoots 7-8" groups (from a Ransom Rest) @ 25yds.

As far as this forum being a "hobby" forum, I don't know what that means. I assume that everyone that owns a gun, does so for their own safety. This means that you want something that is reliable AND can hit what you are aiming at. If these things do not interest you, that is on you, but I would not lump other forum members into this category.
Click to expand...

Nice to see you weighting in on this, Grant. :)

Please don't let a comment about the calvary or comparisons to m4C detract from the conversation. No slight intended, but it is hard not to notice the reverential status you enjoy at m4C, which I'm guessing may be the seed of the calvary comment.

[For those that don't know, Grant runs an excellent small busines selling guns, gun parts and accesories for AR rifles and other military/LE 'tools', all at very fair prices. He's also a very capable armorer who offers some extra services to upgrade and support the stuff he sells.]

Since we have you ear here, can you maybe share some of your thoughts on the why the FS9 is so problematic, whereas the rest of the M&P line isn't? I've talked some about Hilton Yam and his comments regarding slow twist rates and premature unlocking and wonder what your take is on this?

[In the interest of full disclosure, the Storm Lake replacement barrels I have mentioned above were from Grant. Since he has been working to bring a replacement FS9 barrel to market, that should be fairly disclosed here.]

Both you and APEX are working to bring replacements barrels to market. How different is their approach to a replacement barrel compared to yours? IIRC, they (APEX) are working to change the geometry of the locking block to address the premature unlocking issues. Are you doing something similar? Not sure what APEX's plan is, but isn't yours to hand fit the replacement barrels? Will you offer new FS9 pistols with the replacement barrels fitted? What sort of accuracy are you looking for?

Since you are dealing with factory engineers, I would be interested in knowing how enlightened they are about the FS9 accuracy problem and whether, as Hilton has speculated, they are addressing it (moving forward), with an improved barrel? Is this true? Have they told you what (if anything) they think is causing these problems and why it seems to be a FS9 only problem?

Thank you in advance for whatever info you care to share here.
 
RockBottom said:
Could you provide more specifics about the .40? I hear almost nothing but raves about the M&P40...
Click to expand...

My experience is very limited. In .40SW, I have only used three guns extensively (two FS and one 40C model), and in 9x19, only the two I have already mentioned, so it is "almost" meaningless - except to me! (The guy who paid good, green money for those pistols. :D)

My .40SW experiences are similar to the 9x19 experiences. I used the guns pretty extensively over two or three years with both factory loads and lots of handloads. Accuracy was just "barely acceptable" - to me. At the risk of causing an uproar, I think comparable Glocks would have outshot my M&Ps by some margin.

Having said that, I will add, as I always have, that Glocks are an "unattractive nuisance" to me. They are uncomfortable and do not point/feel "natural" to me, and the trigger dingus pinches my finger (especially in .40SW). In spite of that, undeniably, they work - and they seem to be fairly accurate pistols.

But that comment was not meant to launch a Glock vs. M&P war. They are just comparable pistols, and one seemed to be a bit more accurate to me than the other, based on my own experiences - that's all. (Period! ;))
 
Desert Dog said:
...Actually, I think Smith is counting on the *average* shooter not having a clue as to whether it's their pistol or their limited marksmanship skills making their groups so large. Outside of forums such as this one, I've heard almost no mention of an accuracy problem, excepting a few experienced shooters discussing it at the range.
Click to expand...

I admit, one has to wonder about this! :D

On the other hand, the pistol is aimed at the law enforcement market where a certain level of proficiency is required - and where, one would think, anything that makes obtaining this level difficult (like, for example, an atrocious trigger :rolleyes:) would seem to be a considerable minus-punkt.

So, it seems hard to accept this theory, especially considering the huge investment S&W has in the M&P design, both in money and in credibility. Nevertheless, the "atrocious trigger" was indisputably there on the early guns. Who knows what they are thinking? :)
 
M29since14 said:
My experience is very limited. In .40SW, I have only used three guns extensively (two FS and one 40C model), and in 9x19, only the two I have already mentioned, so it is "almost" meaningless - except to me! (The guy who paid good, green money for those pistols. :D)

My .40SW experiences are similar to the 9x19 experiences. I used the guns pretty extensively over two or three years with both factory loads and lots of handloads. Accuracy was just "barely acceptable" - to me. At the risk of causing an uproar, I think comparable Glocks would have outshot my M&Ps by some margin.

Having said that, I will add, as I always have, that Glocks are an "unattractive nuisance" to me. They are uncomfortable and do not point/feel "natural" to me, and the trigger dingus pinches my finger (especially in .40SW). In spite of that, undeniably, they work - and they seem to be fairly accurate pistols.

But that comment was not meant to launch a Glock vs. M&P war. They are just comparable pistols, and one seemed to be a bit more accurate to me than the other, based on my own experiences - that's all. (Period! ;))
Click to expand...

Interesting - thanks. Most of what I've read is that the M&P40 is much more accurate than the M&P9. My limited experience with rentals of both came to the same conclusion, but as with you, that's based on my own experience. Really the only think that's keeping me going back and forth between the M&P9 and M&P40 is the cost of .40 ammo, otherwise the decision would be a slam dunk to get the .40 for me. (If I was single and didn't have 3 kids to put through college the ammo cost wouldn't even bother me, but sadly - for my wallet anyway - that's not the case.) :)
 
turbo38gn said:
very good response Grant, thanks...... is the new barrel you are working on ready yet? ... what's the percentage of these issues Grant? Can you fill us in with some real bonified numbers, like official type numbers since you are so close to S&W engineers. All I ever hear is the few that are sent back by M4C members tend to come back with a factory "in spec" no repair needed.. but that's just what I read... and you know how believable internet stuff is.. oh ya, I think you are a little over the top on your spanking of me.... :)
Click to expand...

Barrels are about 3 weeks out.

To be honest, I can count on two hands the number of FS/5L 9mm M&P's that I have seen shoot better than 4 inches at 25yds (10rd groups).

S&W really has no definition for accuracy on the 9mm's (unlike the M&P's in 45). They also shoot guns at 15yds and typically only fire 3 rounds.

From my experience, the random unlocking AKA large groups, doesn't show itself till you shoot PAST 15yds.

I apologize if you thought I "spanked" you. That wasn't my intent.



C4
 
Last edited:
Desert Dog said:
Nice to see you weighting in on this, Grant. :)

Please don't let a comment about the calvary or comparisons to m4C detract from the conversation. No slight intended, but it is hard not to notice the reverential status you enjoy at m4C, which I'm guessing may be the seed of the calvary comment.

[For those that don't know, Grant runs an excellent small busines selling guns, gun parts and accesories for AR rifles and other military/LE 'tools', all at very fair prices. He's also a very capable armorer who offers some extra services to upgrade and support the stuff he sells.]

Since we have you ear here, can you maybe share some of your thoughts on the why the FS9 is so problematic, whereas the rest of the M&P line isn't? I've talked some about Hilton Yam and his comments regarding slow twist rates and premature unlocking and wonder what your take is on this?

[In the interest of full disclosure, the Storm Lake replacement barrels I have mentioned above were from Grant. Since he has been working to bring a replacement FS9 barrel to market, that should be fairly disclosed here.]

Both you and APEX are working to bring replacements barrels to market. How different is their approach to a replacement barrel compared to yours? IIRC, they (APEX) are working to change the geometry of the locking block to address the premature unlocking issues. Are you doing something similar? Not sure what APEX's plan is, but isn't yours to hand fit the replacement barrels? Will you offer new FS9 pistols with the replacement barrels fitted? What sort of accuracy are you looking for?

Since you are dealing with factory engineers, I would be interested in knowing how enlightened they are about the FS9 accuracy problem and whether, as Hilton has speculated, they are addressing it (moving forward), with an improved barrel? Is this true? Have they told you what (if anything) they think is causing these problems and why it seems to be a FS9 only problem?

Thank you in advance for whatever info you care to share here.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the kind comments. I have basically answered your questions in another post here so I won't do it again.

I will also state that I have an NDA signed with S&W so I really cannot go into much detail about what S&W is or isn't doing concerning fixes and such. With that said, S&W is always improving their products and putting money into their guns.


C4
 
C4IGrant said:
Well to be honest, the loose fit between the barrel hood and slide is the main problem.

The only fix is to fit a barrel to the slide. Theory proven here:First look, Storm Lake Fitted barrels for S&W M&P! - M4Carbine.net Forums



C4
Click to expand...

Sorry, but not much proof there.

It could be true, but I would just have to take your word for it.

It would be easier to trust your results if you weren't standing to gain financially from the sale of custom fit barrels for a solution to a problem that might not exist.

If I were to post similar photos, and comments of groups with my factory drop in 9mm barrel in my M&PC .357 sig, would you be willing to take that as proof of the theory that the factory 9mm barrel is accurate, especially if I was also advertising to sell the barrels for financial gain?

You may be considered an expert on M4C, but I don't know you from Adam, and I just can't take your word for it, under the circumstances.
 
Brotheryang, I had the same issue with my 9C when I reversed the safety. The problem is that there is a lot of variance in the distance the metal blade of the mag catch extends from the molded plastic body. There have been a number of these reports.

I compared catches from my 9C, 9FS and 40FS. All 3 had been reversed to left hand configuration, only the 9C has problems. The blade on the 9C was found to be extended out quite a bit farther than the other two. This causes the blade to extend far enough into the magazine body to interefere with the mag follower as it rises. If you look at the front left corner of your magazine followers, you will see where the catch contacting them.

Some people fix the problem by modding the magazine followers where they hang up on the blade of the catch. If you take too much off, you run the risk of the slide stop not engaging when the last round is fired.

I bought a replacement catch from SSS, intending to fit the blade so the mags worked properly with the catch reversed. The one I received was short enough it worked properly without modification.

Welcome to the forum!
 
i had the same concern when i bought my m&p9 full size. mine shoots great and after doing my trigger job here at home, even better. very happy. i havent tried shooting the wings off a butterfly at 50 yards, but for a home defense/combat pistol, its hard to beat. dont believe all the internet bs, the majority of the ppl that will post arte unhappy. the happy ppl are out shooting and not on the forums complaining. enjoy your new firearm.
 
S&WOkie said:
Sorry, but not much proof there.

It could be true, but I would just have to take your word for it.
Click to expand...

LOL. Well what kind of proof do you need? I took MY own personal M&P (the one that wouldn't shoot better than 7-8" groups from a Ransom Rest), I fitted a SL barrel to it and have now shot 1" groups with **** ammo!

I have done the above for customers guns a total of 9 times now. All report groups of 2 inches or better.

It would be easier to trust your results if you weren't standing to gain financially from the sale of custom fit barrels for a solution to a problem that might not exist.
Click to expand...

Oh, the problem exists. Little story for you. The S&W shooting team was so frustrated with the poor accuracy of their M&P's that they went to SL to make them oversized barrels so they could fit them (which is how I found out about them). How's that for proof??? Still not enough proof? Pick up the phone and call Apex Tactical. They will explain (in detail) that M&P's in 9mm are not very accurate.

If I were to post similar photos, and comments of groups with my factory drop in 9mm barrel in my M&PC .357 sig, would you be willing to take that as proof of the theory that the factory 9mm barrel is accurate, especially if I was also advertising to sell the barrels for financial gain?
Click to expand...

First, it is entirely possible that a drop in barrel COULD give you better accuracy. I should know because I first tried a drop in SL barrel in my M&P. The groups did improve (to about 6 inches @ 25yds). Others have reported no change though (can send links).



C4
 
srice425 said:
i had the same concern when i bought my m&p9 full size. mine shoots great and after doing my trigger job here at home, even better. very happy. i havent tried shooting the wings off a butterfly at 50 yards, but for a home defense/combat pistol, its hard to beat. dont believe all the internet bs, the majority of the ppl that will post arte unhappy. the happy ppl are out shooting and not on the forums complaining. enjoy your new firearm.
Click to expand...

You could have one that shoots well (they are out there). When you say "shoots great" do you have a definition for that? As in, how many inches at 25yds???

Please shoot 10rds @ 25yds (or at least two 5rd groups) and show us how "great" it shoots.


C4
 
C4IGrant said:
You could have one that shoots well (they are out there). When you say "shoots great" do you have a definition for that? As in, how many inches at 25yds???

Please shoot 10rds @ 25yds (or at least two 5rd groups) and show us how "great" it shoots.


C4
Click to expand...

WHY !! That's the point Grant, many gun owners don't have a need to shoot 25 yds with M&P's, that's not what they bought them for. I bought mine for self defense and plinking. I have had my training related to home defense and it's been beaten into me that anything beyond about 20ft is more than likely going to be a difficult defense in court. I'm not LEO nor am I active duty military anymore. To me, you are trying to drive something down my throat that I don't want when you attack my guns with data related to an area I didn't buy it for. When I or someone else says they are satisfied with their guns, why do you need to attack that statement?

When a customer of mine comes in my shop with a 10 second street car, I don't tell him what a **** his car is, he needs to spend another $10,000 so his car will run 9's in the 1\4 mile... just because that's what I think he should be doing... hmmmm... although I did tell Justin his Cyclone is a tuurd....:)
 
turbo38gn said:
WHY !! That's the point Grant, many gun owners don't have a need to shoot 25 yds with M&P's, that's not what they bought them for. I bought mine for self defense and plinking. I have had my training related to home defense and it's been beaten into me that anything beyond about 20ft is more than likely going to be a difficult defense in court. I'm not LEO nor am I active duty military anymore. To me, you are trying to drive something down my throat that I don't want when you attack my guns with data related to an area I didn't buy it for. When I or someone else says they are satisfied with their guns, why do you need to attack that statement?
Click to expand...

It’s kind of like buying a Corvette for the top speed of 200MPH (know that you couldn't legally drive that fast), but COULDN'T because the FACTORY did not install the engine properly.

Don't live in a world of "what would a jury think" in regards to your personal defense. If I am carrying my CCW and someone is shooting at me from 25yds out, I am going to shoot them. Wouldn't it be nice to know that you could hit them VS missing and hitting an innocent??

I live on M4C. When we see someone say "good enough" or make a claim about something we question what that means and or ask them for proof (as many have asked of me in here).

For many, they have never actually fired a gun at 25yds so they really don't even know what they don't know.

Asking someone to provide a target (showing groups at 25yds) isn't "attacking" them (FYI). I simply want to see what the definition of "shoots great" really means.

When a customer of mine comes in my shop with a 10 second street car, I don't tell him what a **** his car is, he needs to spend another $10,000 so his car will run 9's in the 1\4 mile... just because that's what I think he should be doing... hmmmm... although I did tell Justin his Cyclone is a tuurd....:)
Click to expand...

I am not telling anyone to buy anything (not sure where you got that). If someone is happy with a defensive pistol that shoot 7-8 inches (when all others shoot 4" or better), then I am fine with that. Just don't try and convince me and the rest of the world that it shoots great (when it really doesn't).




C4
 
Peronsal needs define what is 'acceptable accuracy'. Whether a shooter requires the Nth degree of accuracy or not, it remains a matter for the individual to decide. Except for reliability considerations, less is generally never more when we speak of inherent accuracy. You may not ever need to shoot at someone 25 yards away, but a pistol that is more accurate at 25 yards is going to be more accurate at 7 yards.

Engaging targets at shorter distances doesn't necessarily obviate the need for greater precision in your shooting. What if your wife/GF/daughter had a bad guy holding a knife to her throat and you were drawing down on the bad guy from 7 yards away? Would you want the pistol that was pretty good but did throw flyers, or would you feel more confident taking the head shot with the one that always groups tightly?

If you're happy with the way your FS9 shoots, then more power to you. For the rest of the guys with FS9s that don't shoot groups of acceptable size, a solution like Grant or Apex is working on just may be the answer to their accuracy problem. People are free to decide if they want to wait for other shooters to start running these barrels and reporting back on the forums, or they can plunk down their money now and take a chance on this being the fix. Only you can decide if the urgency of the problem requires you to shoulder the extra risk of being an early adopter.
 
What is funny about this thread is the amount of PM's and E-mails I have received from people concerning their M&P's lack of accuracy. Apparently MANY on this forum have a problem with their guns accuracy, but since this forum is full of "M&P fanboys" they sit quietly and do not express their dissatisfaction with their guns accuracy. Not picking on this forum (XD, Glock, etc forums all suffer from the same issues) but it is common for people to become "married" to their purchase and will defend it no matter what.

With that said, I am a HUGE fan of the M&P. Not only do I shoot one (is my main training pistol), but I make my living off of selling them. I do however have to be honest and call a spade a spade. So if there is a problem, I will acknowledge it and do what I can to resolve it.



C4
 
Last edited:
Desert Dog said:
Peronsal needs define what is 'acceptable accuracy'. Whether a shooter requires the Nth degree of accuracy or not, it remains a matter for the individual to decide. Except for reliability considerations, less is generally never more when we speak of inherent accuracy. You may not ever need to shoot at someone 25 yards away, but a pistol that is more accurate at 25 yards is going to be more accurate at 7 yards.

Engaging targets at shorter distances doesn't necessarily obviate the need for greater precision in your shooting. What if your wife/GF/daughter had a bad guy holding a knife to her throat and you were drawing down on the bad guy from 7 yards away? Would you want the pistol that was pretty good but did throw flyers, or would you feel more confident taking the head shot with the one that always groups tightly?

If you're happy with the way your FS9 shoots, then more power to you. For the rest of the guys with FS9s that don't shoot groups of acceptable size, a solution like Grant or Apex is working on just may be the answer to their accuracy problem. People are free to decide if they want to wait for other shooters to start running these barrels and reporting back on the forums, or they can plunk down their money now and take a chance on this being the fix. Only you can decide if the urgency of the problem requires you to shoulder the extra risk of being an early adopter.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Where the problem arises though is that the M&P is competing in a market where their competitors DO shoot 4 inches OR better. So since the M&P isn't significantly cheaper than any of the other "quality" defensive pistols, it should shoot as well as they do IMHO.


C4
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
Accuracy issues with 2.0?
Replies
10
Views
986
song dog
S
R
Just ordered the M&P 2.0 45acp
Replies
5
Views
740
rubiranch
rubiranch
J
Can the M&P9 L 17rd carry a 10rd mag?
Replies
4
Views
342
Doug M.
Doug M.
M
I got a dumb question
Replies
7
Views
408
Beju
B
M
M&P9 EZ 9mm firing mechanism
Replies
6
Views
371
MDillon
M

Latest posts

Back
Top