M1A vs M&P 10

Model 15-4ever said:

And the reason the M14 was chosen to be modified was availability, and the initial cost being zero since hundreds of thousands are in inventory.

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That was part of the logic in the beginning, as was the .223's ineffectiveness at extended ranges. However, the newly minted EBR's etc are not the old mothballed M-14's. They are the next generation of it and are not cheap to produce.

I have a variant of the next generation, the SOCOM and I can tell you, it's anything but dated.

Personally I think the choice between the M1A and the M&P 10 is purely one of form factor. I own two M&P 15's and love shooting each of them (one has a 16-inch barrel and the other has a 20-inch barrel). When I wanted to bring a 308 battle rifle into the family, I chose a M1A Scout Squad (18-inch barrel). As someone who tends to prefer the carbine form factor, the Scout Squad was a good option for me and one that did not require a modified gas system.

5.56 v 7.62 a non issue.

I don't have a MP-10, I do have a trouble free MP-15 set up by the old Black Water armor's. THIS MP-15 runs like a charm and shoots 1/2 or less holes at 200 meters with a frozen barrel and some additional enhancement's not available when I was in VN country.

I also have a Full bore Springfield White Feather and this M1A is my idea of a real gun. I have a night force scope mounted with the correct Springfield mount. I can place two 20 round mags down range fast and hold 1/2-3/4 inch group at 350 meters. I had the fellows freeze the barrel on this weapon also.
Understand I am 6'7'' tall at 230 lbs. in good shape for old dog.
Weight verses reliability in the M1A, I take reliability everyday in a firearm, M1A has plenty in all combat conditions an can reach out and touch someone.
While in country I carried a M1A sawed off to fit beside the driver set in my A-6. I did not know it would become a socom! Full auto was a beast but fun and quick. Charlie don't get up or keep coming when hit anywhere with a 168g 7.62 . This makes good Charlie's out of bad one's.

My vote is M1A for being there, so one was still alive to receive there combat ribbon.
Semper Fi

AR-10 works for me

Having shot M1 Garands, M14's, and M16's, when I went looking for a battle rifle, I found a DPMS LR308, which is the AR-10 platform. That was 7 years or so ago. I had initial problems with a tight chamber that would not chamber Lake City 7.62 ammo. DPMS fixed that for me, and since then that rifle has shot thousands of rounds of factory and handloads with 100% reliability. I have it topped with a Trijicon ACOG scope, and I can hit anything I put my mind to out to 600 yards. Haven't tried it further. When I go hog hunting, I use it with a night vision scope, and it will reach out there and kill them DRT. I personally like the ergonomics of the AR-10 plaform better than the M14/M1A platform. Both are easy to shoot and, with iron sights, I really can't tell the difference in recoil. Put a scope on them, though, and there is no comparison. The AR-10 is designed with optics in mind, while the M14/M1A requires one to put a cheekpad on the buttstock if you want a decent cheekweld. That added height on the stock caused the recoil to be felt much more with the M14/M1A than the AR-10.

I love the 7.62 x 51 (.308 Win) round. I have several other rifles chambered for it that I use for most of my hunting, so I have done and still do a lot of reloading for it.

I have a friend who loves his Springfield M1A as much as I like my AR-10 (LR308). I guess it really boils down to which one you like best, and which one you feel confident that you can shoot better.

One other piece of info, FWIW: my son is an infantryman with the 75th Ranger Regiment. Before that, he was with the 101st and before that, with the 2nd SCR. He is currently on his 3rd tour in Afghanistan, with one previous tour in Iraq (during the "surge"). When he shot my LR-308, he looked at me and said, "This is what the Army should be issuing to us." He still believes that.

Whichever you choose, shoot straight and have fun! Remember, a warm barrel is a happy barrel.

KertP: please thank your son for his service. That goes for all our veterans.
So the easy and best answer to the question that started this thread is... buy both; AR and M1A platforms. "Variety is the spice of life."

I love this thread but I won't get into the debate over the guns except to state that General Patton would have changed what he said about the MI Garand had he ever had the chance to operate an M-14 because I do believe it is the greatest battle rifle ever made. However, one cannot argue with the success of the AR or AK platforms either.

What I want to note is this:

I believe the fighting rifle is going to be the one there is ample ammo for, and in that case, it is going to come down to 5.56 and 7.62x39 and you had better be verse in both platforms.
A person may love his $4,000 super .308, but that will most likely become a moot point if you can't feed it.

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In America, I believe that could be incorrect advice and you might be wise to not heed it. The 4 calibers of ammunition you are likely to be able to locate easily if, as we used to say in the military, "the balloon goes up", are 9mm Parabellum and .45 ACP for handguns and 5.56 NATO/.223 Remington and .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO for rifles. The military and police armories will mostly have those calibers. 7.62 x 39 is not that common in American storage except in the hands of the citizens who enjoy the AK platform and that caliber. Just food for thought (and do NOT ever forget to have a .22 LR available, too!).

***GRJ***

"A person may love his $4,000 super .308, but that will most likely become a moot point if you can't feed it."

If I didnt have enough to feed it it wouldnt have been in my list of 3 to answer his question.
Call it what you may, But Bone Stock, It will out last The Grand kids. And I'm pretty sure I have enough rounds to last them also.

Gone Old School

Aldoradave said:

Please tell me what your SHTF guns are...I need three or four!

Dave Dillehay

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Sold my M1A, Ruger P90, Mossberg Ultimag and M1 Carbine. Bought a great wood stove with the money. I kept my 1943 Remington model '03 Springfield, my S&W .38 Special CTG w/6" barrel and a Sears 12 Ga.model 20 w/full choke. All are broken in nicely. I guess I'm old school. But damn, that M1A was nice and it was just about like the one I carried in '68. I figure that I can only shoot one gun at a time and if I'm looking at dozens of adversaries (again) and I'm alone, it's curtains no matter what I'm firing. Just being realistic.
willyt

My point on the rifle with available ammo is that, unless you are able to dig in, your choice of rifle is going to depend on what ammo is available. Obviously if you CAN dig in and you have several thousand rounds of 7.62x54R the you ar good to go with your pet mosin but if you had to bug out, how much are going to be able to pack?

cb4017 said:

I admit I get a little baffled when I read posts like this about the M&P 10 problems. I've owned almost every flavor 7.62/.308 semi-auto out there including 3 M1As, Armalite, Colt LE901, SCAR 17, HK91, FAL and so on. My M&P 10 has been one of the most reliable, accurate and best behaved rifles of the bunch.

Maybe I'm just lucky but I don't think I'm in the minority.

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Quite honestly, I feel the issue with the M&P10 is not even fully S&W's fault. These rifles are sourced for many parts. S&W does not manufacture in-house the buffer, tube, BCG, trigger, etc.
Now, if you are mixing and matching parts sourced from several overwhelmed suppliers, you can expect some issues. Mix issues from one supplier to another, and you wind up with more issues than you should. Throw in some lacking QC; throw in a little instant recognition via the instantaneous internet factor, and you see problems in real-time, that evening before the manufacturer has even been called.
In the end, YES- it is S&W's fault: They are sourcing parts, and it is their job to be sure of compatibility. To their credit, they always honor their warranty and take good care of their customers.

NOW; as to the issue of which rifle is a better shooter overall? I choose the M1A/ M14. It is designed as a true long rifle, and not a compact modular rifle. Sighting in is a little different. That most important 'feel' of shooting a rifle is more natural with the M1/ M14. The sound delivered back to the shooter is MUCH more pleasant to the shooter of the M1/M14. Take an AR10 and do a mag dump. Do the same with an M1. With no hearing on....... you will understand what I am talking about.
Or, should I say.......... "YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!"

Well. I have shot both the M-14/M1A Rifles and several rifles in the AR-10 .308 format. Although I do have a AR-15 Format 5.56mm Rifle, I selected a M1A Scout Rifle for the .308 caliber rifle and have no regrets in these selections. I also have a scoped Remington 700BDL Varmint .223 Rifle and a scoped Remington 700 SPS Rifle in .308, both of which shoots very well. I am not worried about either 5.56 and 7.62 rifle ammunition issue. I don't know if you can really make a bad choice, it all goes back to what someone wants and feels comfortable with......

rojodiablo said:

Quite honestly, I feel the issue with the M&P10 is not even fully S&W's fault. These rifles are sourced for many parts. S&W does not manufacture in-house the buffer, tube, BCG, trigger, etc.
Now, if you are mixing and matching parts sourced from several overwhelmed suppliers, you can expect some issues. Mix issues from one supplier to another, and you wind up with more issues than you should. Throw in some lacking QC; throw in a little instant recognition via the instantaneous internet factor, and you see problems in real-time, that evening before the manufacturer has even been called.
In the end, YES- it is S&W's fault: They are sourcing parts, and it is their job to be sure of compatibility. To their credit, they always honor their warranty and take good care of their customers.

NOW; as to the issue of which rifle is a better shooter overall? I choose the M1A/ M14. It is designed as a true long rifle, and not a compact modular rifle. Sighting in is a little different. That most important 'feel' of shooting a rifle is more natural with the M1/ M14. The sound delivered back to the shooter is MUCH more pleasant to the shooter of the M1/M14. Take an AR10 and do a mag dump. Do the same with an M1. With no hearing on....... you will understand what I am talking about.
Or, should I say.......... "YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!"

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Like I mentioned - If S&W isn't aware of problems by this point in time its because they aren't paying attention. Given the scattergun approach to sourcing parts you mentioned, they shouldn't be sending these out the door without a solid QC check involving AT LEAST 30 (and preferably 100) rounds without a FTF or FTE. There's also the small matter of aftermarket parts that work perfectly on one M&P10, and require custom machining to work on another - that's poor design control, and not something you'd expect from a company with S&W's long-term reputation for quality.

Given a choice between a Garand and my M&P10? At this point in time, give me the Garand. I like my M&P, but I want my weapons to work reliably each and every time I squeeze the trigger.

Gischileu said:

There's also the small matter of aftermarket parts that work perfectly on one M&P10, and require custom machining to work on another - that's poor design control, and not something you'd expect from a company with S&W's long-term reputation for quality.

Given a choice between a Garand and my M&P10? At this point in time, give me the Garand. I like my M&P, but I want my weapons to work reliably each and every time I squeeze the trigger.

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On one hand, I agree with you. Rifles like these should have more commonality. But there is an issue with that; the AR10 platform was not adopted as a US military rifle. It lost out to the M14 at the time.
So, they are really a civilian rifle. And in that respect, it would be a little like being mad at S&W for it's 45 not being able to mix and match well with a Colt 45 or a Rock Island 45.
Like being mad at Remington for their model 700 parts not working in a Winchester model 70.

I feel they really, really dropped the ball on this. We are seeing less of it here, because I think they did have a come to Jesus and probably have gotten more aggressive with their QC. If there were a good size batch of rifles produced with non-optimal parts, it could take a year for them all to hit the market and wind up in end user hands. A shop can sit on them and not sell them, a hoarder could have bought a gag of them and not be willing to part with them until he's going broke and finds a buyer, etc. --The rifle can sit, unused for months. A lot of folks spent everything they had on rifles, yet could not scrounge any ammo for months, or were unwilling to pay a buck a bullet or more. A lot of unfired rifles in closets all over America!!!!

The whole reason for proprietary parts is to beat patents, to secure patents, and to ensure that all items sold will have a service cost associated. And, IDEALLY, the service costs will be a profit source for the manufacturer thru product loyalty.

But the M1 just feels really nice in the end. Especially a rifle that is relatively light and easy to carry.

I sold my M1A in order to purchase an M&P 10. No regrets at all.

merlin9800 said:

I don't have a MP-10, I do have a trouble free MP-15 set up by the old Black Water armor's. THIS MP-15 runs like a charm and shoots 1/2 or less holes at 200 meters with a frozen barrel and some additional enhancement's not available when I was in VN country.

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merlin9800 said:

I also have a Full bore Springfield White Feather and this M1A is my idea of a real gun. I have a night force scope mounted with the correct Springfield mount. I can place two 20 round mags down range fast and hold 1/2-3/4 inch group at 350 meters. I had the fellows freeze the barrel on this weapon also.

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That's truly, truly, amazing.......

No kidding. 40 rounds downrange within 1/2"-3/4" at 350 yds!!

smith17 said:

No kidding. 40 rounds downrange within 1/2"-3/4" at 350 yds!!

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350 Meters
That would be 382.765 Yards.

merlin9800 said:

I can place two 20 round mags down range fast and hold 1/2-3/4 inch group at 350 meters.

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As a competitive rifle shooter, police firearms instructor and FBI trained Observer/Sniper I would have to see this to believe it.

I could almost believe 1/2-3/4 MOA.

Dave,

If you think the M&P-10 is high maintenance because it needs oil to keep running, stay away from M14s. The M14 needs grease to keep it running and you need to keep the little bearing packed so it doesn't seize up and break off. An M14 that's shot a lot also beats up it's bedding when using a GI stock. Aluminum stocks are more durable but also add a lot of weight. M14s are also ammo sensitive. While weaker ammo may cause the AR to short stroke, ammo with the wrong pressure curve can bend the op rod of an M14.

I have an M14 and an M&P-10. I love my M14. It's reliable, durable and a wonderful shooter. But it takes more maintenance to keep it running than the M&P-10. With the big Smith, I give the BCG a couple squirts of oil and off we go. The M14, I gotta make sure it gets greased in all the right places and check to make sure the little bearing on the bolt hasn't run dry. The M&P-10 also has the advantage of mounting whatever style sight I want.

If you still have your M&P-10, make sure to lube the BCG. It's especially important to place a few drops in the vent holes so the inside of the BCG gets lubed. If the carbon starts building up, hit it with some more oil. The oil will carry away the fouling.

The 10 round mag I got from S&W doesn't work very well. I got a couple PMags and they work great. Get yourself some PMags and retire the factory mag. The M&P-10 really does have a lot going for it but like any other rifle, you've gotta know it's quirks. Run it wet and it will run even when it's dirty

Dear MistWolf,

I carried and used in anger the M14 for over 12 months in Vietnam as a Marine Grunt. I am probably more aware of what it needs than most anyone else on this forum. In my 13th month they made me take an M16 which I hated. Indeed, just before coming home I threw the damn thing into a swamp. Maybe that has given me a hex with the AR platform!

On the other hand, my experience with 2 M&P 10s has been awful, from out of box on. I bought and use 16 Magpul LR20 magazines and that did not much help the ammo sensitivity problem... ammo that all three of my M14s eat with no problem.

On the other, other hand, the M&P 10 may end up being my favorite...but my big bitch is with S&W. Why in the world would they ship out a product that has to be adjusted, tuned, special Mags, etc? But I will never again buy a S&W product without great skepticism.

But thanks for the tips anyway.

Dave Dillehay E5 USMC
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