jackrabbit000
Member
Does anyone actually use the forward assist on an AR? I've noticed that some of the lower end AR's don't even come with the forward assist anymore. Does having the FA add any value to the gun?
Forward Assist
- Thread starter jackrabbit000
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Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
The lower end ones don't come with it because they are just that...lower end.
The lower end ones don't come with it because they are just that...lower end.
Candrews86
Member
It's really a military type accessory. Its intentions are to force the chamber all the way forward if bolt wont go on its own. That's due to very dirty guns or dirty conditions (dirt, gunpowder, sand, etc.) Not really necessary for the hobbyist, or people that really take care of their weapons and clean them on the regular. Life and death situations, it could be a life saver. Far as value, maybe, maybe not.
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JaPes
Member
This should be interesting.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
You mean the low end ARs like the Sport? The low end one that has the same bolt and carrier group as the rest of the M&P line? The low end one that has the Melonited barrel? The low end one that has the same lower as the M&P 15T? And in the case of the older Sports, the low end one that has the 1:8 twist with 5R rifling, the same barrel as found on the M&P 15T? Is that the lower end one that you are disparaging, or is it some other one?
And if not having a forward assist makes an AR lower end, someone should let Les Baer know... they've been turning out a lot of low end guns.
JaPes
Member
I think because written communication lacks non-verbal cues maybe just maybe the phrase "low end" is misinterpreted. I hope that this is the case here. The rifles that omit the forward assist eliminate material and manufacturing cost, and pass that savings onto the consumer. They are on the "low end" of the price range. Price isn't always directly proportional to quality.
Jackrabbit000, I have an AR with a forward assist. I've never had to use it. Even if I had a chambering issue on the range, I still wouldn't use it. On a one way range, I have the luxury of time. I can take the time to assess, diagnose, and remedy the problem. A forward assist can potentially make a problem worse.
Jackrabbit000, I have an AR with a forward assist. I've never had to use it. Even if I had a chambering issue on the range, I still wouldn't use it. On a one way range, I have the luxury of time. I can take the time to assess, diagnose, and remedy the problem. A forward assist can potentially make a problem worse.
arizona98tj
US Veteran
I could probably introduce you to some folks that might disagree with that statement.
I've assisted multiple AR shooters at the range who decided that pounding on the forward assist was the solution for chambering a bad reload. Had to butt stroke the AR to eject the cartridge. Had there been no FA, they wouldn't have jammed up their AR.
cyphertext
US Veteran
The forward assist was not on the original rifle design from Stoner. Forward assist is an Army holdover from the M1 Garand and M14 days. On those weapons, there is an operating rod that allow you to push the bolt forward. In the AR, the charging handle only pulls the bolt to the rear, and can move independently from the bolt.
Arguments are made for and against. One popular argument for a FA is that if you ride the charging handle forward to silently close the bolt, you need the FA to ensure the bolt is fully forward and closed. The counter argument is that the scallop cut out in the bolt is there so that you can use your thumb to push the bolt forward. Inevitably, someone will argue that you can't do that when the bolt is hot... well, if the bolt is hot, I have been shooting, which really negates the need to be silent in my mind.
The military training used SPORTS in training on the M16. If you had a problem with the firearm you were supposed to
Slap gently upward on the magazine to ensure that it is fully seated and that the magazine follower is not jammed.
Pull the charging handle fully to the rear
Observe the ejection of a live round or expended cartridge. If cartridge is not ejected, perform remedial action
Release the charging handle; do not ride it forward.
Tap the forward assist assembly to ensure that the bolt is closed.
Shoot
Notice that even with this method, the FA is not used to ram a stuck cartridge home. If you follow SPORTS, that cartridge that failed to load has been ejected. If not, you are in deep doo doo. In my opinion, if your weapon fails to load again when the charging handle is released, it is time for remedial action, not a tap on the forward assist. Many shooting classes no longer teach the tap on the forward assist and go directly to remedial action when the firearm fails to load after clearing the initial stoppage.
Arguments are made for and against. One popular argument for a FA is that if you ride the charging handle forward to silently close the bolt, you need the FA to ensure the bolt is fully forward and closed. The counter argument is that the scallop cut out in the bolt is there so that you can use your thumb to push the bolt forward. Inevitably, someone will argue that you can't do that when the bolt is hot... well, if the bolt is hot, I have been shooting, which really negates the need to be silent in my mind.
The military training used SPORTS in training on the M16. If you had a problem with the firearm you were supposed to
Slap gently upward on the magazine to ensure that it is fully seated and that the magazine follower is not jammed.
Pull the charging handle fully to the rear
Observe the ejection of a live round or expended cartridge. If cartridge is not ejected, perform remedial action
Release the charging handle; do not ride it forward.
Tap the forward assist assembly to ensure that the bolt is closed.
Shoot
Notice that even with this method, the FA is not used to ram a stuck cartridge home. If you follow SPORTS, that cartridge that failed to load has been ejected. If not, you are in deep doo doo. In my opinion, if your weapon fails to load again when the charging handle is released, it is time for remedial action, not a tap on the forward assist. Many shooting classes no longer teach the tap on the forward assist and go directly to remedial action when the firearm fails to load after clearing the initial stoppage.
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gunny4053
US Veteran
Yes Sir, just what he said. Trying to force a round that didn't want to chamber to start with makes no sense, yet there are people that think if you do that, the situation will be self healing. It's just a band aid.
As to value, only if it is of value to the buyer. For the buyer with no interest in such things, it's just an extra, not an option used to increase the price.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
I can't answer "How many" but I can give a few examples.
M1 Garand
M14
M1 Carbine
M16
M4
AK 47
SKS
Ruger Mini 14
Ruger Mini 30
Ruger 10/22
Essentially any firearm that has an operating rod or charging handle that is connected directly to the bolt, and can move the bolt in both a forward and rearward movement. On the AR, the charging handle moves the bolt rearward, and the FA moves it forward.
old&slow
Member
Long time handgun shooter. But only been playing with AR's for a few years.
But the forward assist always seemed like a strange device to me. The bolt doesn't go all the way to battery because a round is jammed part way into the chamber. So, I want to use the forward assist to jammed it in tighter ?
But the forward assist always seemed like a strange device to me. The bolt doesn't go all the way to battery because a round is jammed part way into the chamber. So, I want to use the forward assist to jammed it in tighter ?
NJM15
Member
Some do and some dont
A friend of mine got a mr15 T like mine his had the assist mine didn't I heard they were California compliant with them
We are both in NJ
A friend of mine got a mr15 T like mine his had the assist mine didn't I heard they were California compliant with them
We are both in NJ
That's not the purpose of the forward assist. Theoretically, the AR's bolt carrier can become sluggish, due to a number of reasons (think combat environment), and fail to allow the bolt to completely seat a round in the chamber. When this occurs the forward assist is used to bump the carrier forward which fully closes the bolt and seats the round (contrary to the beliefs of some, you're not going to be able to do this with a thumb- the scallop on the bolt carrier is there to operate the dust cover, not for manually advancing the bolt with a digit of the hand).
Used this way, it is a wonderful device. Obviously, when used to jam a jam even further, it's not so wonderful. The forward assist is one of those things with which the operator really needs to know what he is doing.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
Did anyone let Eugene Stoner know that? You know, the guy that designed the rifle and the scallop in the bolt?
If you are not able to push the bolt forward with your thumb, then you are going to have to give it more than a light tap on the forward assist as well. Just make sure to wear shooting gloves, as the bolt does get hot.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Where did you get a M&P 15T that does not have a forward assist? To my knowledge, the Sport is the only rifle in the M&P line without a forward assist.
Did you buy the rifle new? If not, it is possible that the previous owner had a Sport and put a quad rail with flip up sights to make it look like a 15T.
I'm not sure I understand your objection here. Furthermore, the scallop is on the bolt carrier, not the bolt. As explained, it exists to operate the dust cover. Anyone familiar with the mechanics of the AR understands this. That some have found, after the fact, that they might, in certain ideal circumstances (dry ungloved hands, a cold dry bolt carrier, and only if one's thumb is small enough to fit in the ejection port), be able to utilize the scallop to attain a purchase with a thumb in order to move the BCG forward, is only incidental. The notion that the scallop exists in order to manipulate the BCG with a thumb is one of those internet myths that just won't die, apparently.
The forward assist generates much more force than can be applied with a thumb alongside the bolt carrier, even in the best of conditions.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
The objection is that Eugene Stoner designed the rifle without the forward assist as it exists today. The first M16s brought into the military were purchased by the Air Force, and they did not have the forward assist. The statement that Eugene Stoner advised to put your thumb in the scallop on the bolt carrier and push forward to close the bolt has been around a lot longer than the internet. (yes, earlier I said bolt... while technically not correct, everyone on here knew what I meant... kinda like buffer tube vs receiver extension.)
You are correct, however, that much force is not necessary in a properly functioning rifle. If your action has become so sluggish that you have to use the the forward assist to seat a round, you have an issue that needs to be resolved.
No one has said Stoner wanted a forward assist, but this is beside the point. The issue we're discussing is the scallop on the bolt carrier. You initially seemed to have a problem with my explanation that the scallop doesn't exist to act as a thumb-operated forward assist but rather it's there in order to operate the ejection port cover. Again, use of the scallop to move the BCG forward is only coincidental and secondary to the primary reason the scallop exists, which is, of course, to allow for manually closing and automatic opening of the port cover.
In short, Stoner didn't scallop the bolt carrier for forward assisting. That it might possibly be used that way is only something that was figured out afterwards.
The internet myth I'm referring to is as follows (you can Google and find dozens, if not hundreds, of takes on this theme): "Ya see that thumb-shaped cutout on the side of your bolt? Why ya think it's shaped like a thumb? That's put there for you to use as a forward assist, the way Stoner designed it!"
...which is simply not true. That "thumb-shaped cutout" is for the port cover.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
I agree with this. The scallop was there before the forward assist requirement came forward. It was most likely an after thought of Stoner's to use the scallop to push the bolt carrier forward, in an attempt to over ride the objection of the Army.
My initial objection was that it appeared that you were saying that the scallop could not be used in that fashion. Sorry I wasn't clear...
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