Trigger pull modification legal issues

I suggest that everyone, at least once, read the post in the "Concealed carry and Self Defense" forum which discusses the legal issues related to changing the trigger pull from the factory setting.

The link below should take you directly to the specific Stickey discussion:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html

Everyone considering trigger pull modifications should read that learned and comprehensive discussion of the legal issues related to trigger modifications.

I would also suggest that you take the time to go to the links highlighted in the main article. There are some very interesting test results relating to un-intentional trigger pull, and other relevant topics.

Do you believe that the Glock and S&W striker-fired handguns are classified as Single-Action or Double-action? Is this a legal consideration in "accidental discharge" situations?

One thing you better understand (and this is from the view point from someone who has been sued and sued in the corporate world) if you shoot someone the odds you will be sued in a civil suit are very high. The burden of proof is very low in a civil suit. Modify the trigger pull, reload, have a blue holster, belong to this forum, have blonde hair, etc. will all be found out in the discovery phase and used agaisnt you.

Liability, etc.

Beemer-mark said:

One thing you better understand (and this is from the view point from someone who has been sued and sued in the corporate world) if you shoot someone the odds you will be sued in a civil suit are very high. The burden of proof is very low in a civil suit. Modify the trigger pull, reload, have a blue holster, belong to this forum, have blonde hair, etc. will all be found out in the discovery phase and used agaisnt you.

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Yup - This was the main part of the Carry License class and takes up most of the state training manual. Had a good instructor.

I'm concerned by all the postings about trigger pull mods in this forum. As far as I'm concerned, trigger pull is a non-issue in a self defense situation.

My SD9VE is pretty smooth and I was able to do a lot of "polishing" just by working the trigger without going to full dry-firing. Simple trigger action polishes every thing except the sear components. (I think)

I did do some dry firing using snap caps but they seem to take an impression fairly soon so I don't know how much the cushion the firing pin.

I've shot the rims off 38 special snap caps and have mushroomed the headspace edge on the semi version enough to be firmly convinced that snap caps do cushion the firing pin strike. Nuff said on that subject.

Trigger weight can be a "weighty" legal subject. Personally when I first started carrying I chose the Sig Sauer platform because the heavy 10.5 lbs. trigger weight allowed me to be quite confident that I wouldn't pull the trigger without intending to. Which is what is really at the heart of all this speculation. Did you really intend to fire your weapon? IMO if the answer to that question is Yes and you have a clearly proven need for defense the Courts should recognize that and cut off any counter arguments "with prejudice". BTW, under the Law "with prejudice" means the judge has ruled and nothing on that line mentioned again will be considered. Point here, if you are involved in a shooting you need to insure that there really was a need and you don't EVER, at any time state "the gun just went off" or anything remotely to that effect.

Finally, that decision to carry a Sig Sauer with it's heavy DA trigger is one factor that led me back to my shooting "roots" and take up shooting revolvers. Because decocking the pistol after every shot fired at the range became rather tedious. In order to practice shooting in Double Action the logical answer was to purchase a Double Action Revolver. It has made me a much better shooter because training with a long and rather heavy trigger develops trigger skills better than any other training method. It's also made me a bit of a snob about my trigger skills and I regard anyone who complains about a "heavy" trigger as a bit of a 98 lbs. weakling. To be honest, the word "wimp" comes to mind even if I don't say it out loud.

Thanks for reposting that link ou1954. I don't know how I missed that article the first time, but it is very informative and I'm glad I read it. Not that I have or would modify trigger pulls on any of my guns anyway.

I have an arthritic trigger finger. I sometimes carry a trigger modified version
of my Mod 642's to ease the pain of trigger pull,
should I ever need to use the weapon.

Just turned 77 and things are a changin'.

Pain

JonF said:

I have an arthritic trigger finger. I sometimes carry a trigger modified version of my Mod 642's to ease the pain of trigger pull, should I ever need to use the weapon.

Just turned 77 and things are a changin'.

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Coming up on 84 and no pain yet, but a lot of replaced body parts need replacement from time to time. (well, just the knees and pacemaker/ICD need maintenance)

In any case I think that in the rare chance that I would have to pull a trigger for defensive purposes, finger pain wouldn't come into the picture.

scooter123 said:

I've shot the rims off 38 special snap caps and have mushroomed the headspace edge on the semi version enough to be firmly convinced that snap caps do cushion the firing pin strike. Nuff said on that subject.

<snip>

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My 9mm snap caps are aluminum with rubber (or plastic) in the primer area. Those took a "set" early on so I don't dry-fire much. They were useful in beginning training with my wife. She held and aimed the gun and pulled the trigger, then I did the recoil/eject so it did get her started.

Now I have just purchased an economy 1911, just for nostalgia purposes. Clearly no dry firing unless I can find some good snap caps for that gun.

No safe de-cocker on that gun. I'm concerned about what to do at the range if I need to empty the chamber. I suppose I can just rack it and let the un-fired round go wherever it wants to go. [I carried the real thing while in the Navy but in the NROTC, the rifle team could take out .22 versions of the 1911 on weekends, with free ammo. In those days we could shoot just about everywhere. Now "everywhere" is a housing development.]

Where have y'all missed this: a good shoot is a good shoot?

In numbers of states if the police don't think you've committed a crime and cannot prove it, they can't: charge you, arrest you or even seize your weapon.

Trigger weight has so very little impact as to almost be negligible. Hit your target. Survive. The rest is gravy.

Shoot a BG in Illinois and if its justifiable you won't be sued .. its written into our law ..

The law

Whitwabit said:

Shoot a BG in Illinois and if its justifiable you won't be sued .. its written into our law ..

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The operational word there, or anywhere in the US, is "justifiable". That's a word that is subject to a broad range of interpretations. The Oklahoma Carry license training manual dwells extensively on that one word, or related words.

For just one very basic example, if you shoot a burglar in the back as he is leaving, you are probably in a heap of trouble. Same thing if you shoot someone on your front porch and you "think" he may try to break in.

On the other hand, if he does start to break in the law would generally favor you, but even that is not a lock for your case.

"Facts About "Light Trigger Pull Liability" = Lawyer gibberish.

moosedog said:

"Facts About "Light Trigger Pull Liability" = Lawyer gibberish.

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^
This, And I am a lawyer who has personally handled self defense cases.

moosedog said:

"Facts About "Light Trigger Pull Liability" = Lawyer gibberish.

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I worked on liability claims for an insurance company for 30+ years and we had many liability cases in court. If you give the plaintiff's counsel the slightest opening they can blow up and exaggerate, it can make a claim go against the defendant or make the judgement much larger. It can be a very minor thing that might have nothing to do with the loss but it gives the jury an reason to render a verdict that might be wrong. They think an insurance company is paying even if it isn't.

This occurred to be earlier today in a different thread about a heavy DA trigger pull. In a stressful, heat of the moment, life or death gun in hand situation, I would expect adrenalin to make the trigger pull feel effortless.
Only one who has actually been in that situation would be able to confirm but it's not unheard of to have people lift cars off accident victims so it does seem reasonable to me.

Liability

southcoast said:

This, And I am a lawyer who has personally handled self defense cases.

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In all sincerity let me pose some issues-

Surely you wouldn't advise a client to shoot a robber in the back when he is already back on your front yard and fleeing the scene. [There was a California case on this issue 2 years ago.]

How far could you chase him down the street in order to shoot him? Is there some distance limit that would play well in court?

Can you legally fire a warning shot to someone standing in your front yard? (The Vice President said that is O.K. and recommended it. Is he right? He actually suggested firing a shotgun.)

What states do not have a "Stand your ground" law?

If you drive up to your house and see robbers inside, can you walk up to the window and shoot them?

You can find answers to these in the Oklahoma Carry permit training manual.

Lawyer gibberish

moosedog said:

"Facts About "Light Trigger Pull Liability" = Lawyer gibberish.

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Yes, unless you find yourself a defendant in court.

The original citation gives examples of situations where "Lawyer Gibberish" might impact your own life.

ou1954 said:

In all sincerity let me pose some issues-

Surely you wouldn't advise a client to shoot a robber in the back when he is already back on your front yard and fleeing the scene. [There was a California case on this issue 2 years ago.]

How far could you chase him down the street in order to shoot him? Is there some distance limit that would play well in court?

Can you legally fire a warning shot to someone standing in your front yard? (The Vice President said that is O.K. and recommended it. Is he right? He actually suggested firing a shotgun.)

What states do not have a "Stand your ground" law?

If you drive up to your house and see robbers inside, can you walk up to the window and shoot them?

You can find answers to these in the Oklahoma Carry permit training manual.

Click to expand...

These questions have nothing to do with the issue posed. This topic has been discussed in detail here previously, and rather than upset the mods I will simply suggest a simple search of this forum for the actual discussions rather than offering mine or any other single source opinion. That would be like advocating the use of fingerprint technology on guns based on reading one article.

Here is a link to one of the actual discussions that took place here, not just a one sided opinion piece. Just as when gun control advocates push one side of an argument we would like the audience to have both sides and have all the facts not just how one person chooses to present them.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/426672-apex-carry-package.html

I am always surprised when I read that people want a self defense gun that is hard to shoot. Way I figure it, they either have not had enough training or are afraid they can't keep their finger off the trigger or both.

If I pull my gun, I am ready to kill. Not wing, not scare, kill if need to.

If I put my finger on the trigger than i AM going to kill. There is no reason for my finger to be on the trigger if not then.

If I am going to kill, then I want the best possible advantage to get me and loved ones out of the situation (that I pray never comes up) alive and unharmed.

If that means smoothing out my gun action, I am doing it and have done it.

The last thing on my mind is worry about a jury. That saying "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" may be a way overused cliche, but happens to be very sound words to live by - literally. I am trained, I have practiced, practiced, and practiced some more, and I am not going to rely on this mystical adrenaline rush. I am going to rely on drilled instinct and a smooth, 5 pound (or so) crisp clean trigger.

My opinion is if you feel you need a heavy trigger because you don't think you will be able to keep from pulling it, then perhaps training is needed.

If experience has taught us all anything, then it is that very very few people change their minds. I am not trying to do so. I, like southcoast points out, just expressing a different opinion, which is what all of this really is, opinions.

Doc

I'm thinking just the opposite, if you need a hair trigger to successfully defend yourself, perhaps more trigger time in training is required.