What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?

heekma

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Hello,

I realize demise is a bit strong-members of this forum appreciate thes fine guns-with good reason.

In today's market of lightweight polymer and aluminum-framed guns, I realize the interest in all-steel guns not designed around 1911 is limited, however both Sig and Beretta continue to sell their fair share of aluminum-framed DA/SA guns while the S&W aluminum-framed autos have been dropped from the company's line up.

Why is that? I understand S&W is pursuing the polymer market with the M&P, but why aren't they going head to head with Sig and Beretta with Aluminum-framed autos?

Best,

Heekma
 
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Price. Polymer pistol production is inexpensive and much easier than a metal framed weapon. Add that to the lower price points that prevail in the firearms retail market and it adds up to good business sense.
 
Their steel framed guns were as heavy as boat anchors, and none of them were as reliable across the board as the older Sigs and Berettas. The DA/SA guns are dead as far as major Police contracts are concerned, and the M9 is likely to be the last such for the military too. S&W made a smart decision IMO to drop the Gen 3 guns, and is hard on Glock's heels for the US Police market now. Production capacity and hand fitting (yes the Gen 3 guns did still need some hand fitting) combined to end them.
 
Agree with most of what was said in the above two posts. Mostly, it is just no longer cost - effective to make the 3rd Gen. pistols any longer.
Most Law Enforcement is going with some sort of stiker-fired polymer, and the civilian market is doing the same. Not very many people go for a metal framed DA/SA auto anymore.
Not to mention, the cost of making something along the lines of a 5906 today, I'm sure S&W would have to charge somewhere between $800 - 1000. People seem to be willing to spend that much on a 1911 type pistol, but I really don't see a market for a SA/DA pistol in that price range, when you can buy an M&P for almost half the price.

From what I've seen, most metal framed SIG's seem to go for around $800+, and they seem to be starting to get more aggresively into the polymer framed pistols. I don't know how many P220/226/229 pistols they sell nowadays, but I would not be surprised if SIG ceased making most of their metal framed model DA/SA guns in the next decade or so.
 
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Glock undercut the market and Block fan boys thing there is nothing like their gun, why that is, is beyond me. They are good guns, if you can get by the crappy ergonomics, but no better than several others.

I can see some limited 3rd Gens being sold again, as high end PC guns for those who appreciate their quality. They will never be cheap enough to compete with plastic.
 
I really don't have anything against Glocks, but the way they were marketed to law enforcement agencies/departments caused the death of a lot of metal framed autos, not just Smith. The 3rd gen pistols were/are very reliable, just heavy. I can understand how many cops try to carry the least amount of weight as possible. To this day I believe that Smith was caught off guard by what Glock was willing to do to get their foot in the door.

IMO, the best looking pistols ever made are 3rd gen Smiths and SIG's classic line. The 1911 series comes in 3rd. YMMV
 
I really like S&W gen 3 pistols. Owned 2 4506-1's. Great guns.... BUT too big and heavy to carry.

Just picked up a minty (like new) 3914 9mm. Going to try it for off duty.

3913/14 series pistols are perfect for CCW/OFF duty.

Now about Glocks.

I was issued a Glock 9mm in 1994. Still carry a Glock (on/off duty). Shot many matches with Glocks.

I must say that as a tool, Glock in 9mm is hard to beat.
They are great in more than one way.
 
3rd Gen Autos

Putting aesthetics and tradition (...guns should be made from steel becuase thats the way it always was...) aside for a second it makes absolutely no sense to make the Gen 3's anymore from a cost standpoint.
On top of that, i have owned andextensively shot about 2 dozen Performance Center autos over the last 16 years, including CQB's , 5906 PC's, Shorty .45's and Shorty 40's, 6906 Recons, Shorty 9, etc.. These were all beautiful/awesome guns for sure. I now have 2 9mm M&P's, and have had a smattering of others in .45. NONE of the PC stuff shoots any better (in some cases they shoot worse) than the M&P's . I know i will be accused of bad things for saying this but its fact.
M&P's are real good polymer, cheap (relative to Gen 3) and easy to produce kick *** pistols.
 
Folks,

I appreciate the replies, I really do, but the gist of my question wasn't why the steel-framed S&W autos have been eclipsed by polymer-that's a no-brainer-but why the aluminum-framed Smiths seemed to have been passed by Sig and Beretta when those two companies are providing a very similar product?

Best,

Heekma
 
Folks,

I appreciate the replies, I really do, but the gist of my question wasn't why the steel-framed S&W autos have been eclipsed by polymer-that's a no-brainer-but why the aluminum-framed Smiths seemed to have been passed by Sig and Beretta when those two companies are providing a very similar product?

Best,

Heekma

Sig P226 and Beretta 92 series 9mm are used by MANY units (Military and LE) all over the world.

SIG's and Beretta's in 9mm are SUPER reliable and can take abuse.

From my experience with Beretta 92 (since 1985,in some very nasty parts of the world) I can say that it is the most reliable 9mm pistol I have ever seen.

The only danger that Beretta 92 and SIG P226 are facing today...................is the Glock 17.
 
Folks,

I appreciate the replies, I really do, but the gist of my question wasn't why the steel-framed S&W autos have been eclipsed by polymer-that's a no-brainer-but why the aluminum-framed Smiths seemed to have been passed by Sig and Beretta when those two companies are providing a very similar product?

Best,

Heekma

In a word, Profit.


Gunmakers exist to generate a profit from buying and selling firearms and their related parts & components. This point must be stated at the outset, as only with that idea understood can my answer to your question make sense.

Beretta & Sig make money on metal frame pistols due to the U.S. Government. The largest reason metal frame Sigs and Berettas are even a viable product on the civilian gun counter can be credited to Uncle Sugar.

Today a Beretta 92 is considered in the category of the expensive range toy, as is Sig which is fast becoming a boutique niche brand of firearms. The wife has her Jimmy Choo shoes, and the husband has his Sig 229 pistol.

As far as daily use and carry goes, the current generation of concealed carry shoppers look for lightweight polymer frame guns that are easy to carry and shoot.From the standpoint of the individual user polymer does one thing that metal cant, and that's shooter fitment. The 1911 gets a pass on account of its single stack frame and chamber size, but double stack metal frame guns are a literal pain to hold and carry.Even for my hands they do not feel ideal, and to the female gun shopper 90% of double stack metal 9mm's aren't remotely useable to their hands.My 5906 didn't fit my mother's hands at all, but id bet real money an M&P9 with the small backstrap would work perfect.

A man today can share the same exact pistol with his wife or daughter by simply switching a part on the grip frame.That wasn't possible without two different guns being used in the past.

For the manufacturer the advantages of polymer are a little less charitable.

Milling a metal frame is much more expensive in terms of cost to manufacture than polymer, and its harder to do in a limited time frame. Glock by some sources can make a polymer frame in 85 seconds.

Time to build is a factor because having customer orders backed up may sound good for marketing but its very bad for business, as that backlogged customer base represents revenue that you could have in your pockets now if you had the capacity. Ruger is learning that lesson now with their own 1911 model, which is so hard to find dealers have 37 person wait lists for the weapon. Mutiply that times just ten FFLs and that is a lot of money Ruger is losing for not being able to churn out product fast enough. Had the SR1911 been made out of polymer such a backlog wouldn't exist.

Thus from the gun company's standpoint, they would like to see a marketplace where the only metal guns up for sale are ones on special order for four figures a pop, with polymer being the frame of choice for everything else. In probably 10 years they'll get their wish.
 
The nail has been struck firmly on the head. Years ago, Beretta & Sig managed to land significant military contracts. However, the metal framed pistol as a general issue military sidearm is a dying breed and they will probably be the last. You will note that the HK Mk23 doesn't have a metal frame and works just fine under extreme conditions and has a service life at least as long as a metal frame.

The metal frame weapons simply can't compete on a cost basis-at least so long as the frames are machined. Instead of machining a gazillion frames, a given number of molds are vary carefully machined and then put into service casting polymer. Also, there are actually some actual user advantages to the polymer frame, or at least some of them. I'm personally not wild about the ones where the frame rails are also polymer.

I've heard from several sources that S&W will cheerfully build metal frame 4 digit guns for LE customers if the order is large enough-like the California Highway Patrol model 4006 order a couple of years ago. If the money is guaranteed up front, no problem. One of the things most have to realize is that the MSRP is about a 60% markup from what the manufacturer actually gets from the distributor/jobber for his product. So that piece you just paid $1K for, netted the maker ~$400. From this, he pays employees, buys ads, pays taxes, insurance, interest on loans, dividends to stockholders, buys new tooling & machinery, pays for material to build more guns, funds product development, fixes leaky roofs....

When the time came to retire our 1006s, we could have bought the guys who needed new guns enough 4006s to match the other guys or we could buy everyone an M&P40, plus gear and have a few bucks left over. Simple choice, and since our average scores went up, a good one for our purposes.

There's a whole lot more people willing to spend ~$400 on a gun than ~$1100. Also, quite bluntly, a whole lot of folks would be a lot better off to spend the 4 bills on the weapon and the the rest on ammo for practice.
 
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I think what everyone else has said is true. The time to manufacture, costs of manufacture, and the profit from all that has caused S&W to do the sensible thing in order to stay in business: They have made 3rd gen autos a "special order" item and made polymer pistols as their prime breadwinners.

Now, as long as Smith and Wesson makes parts available for purchase to fix broken 3rd gen autos (broken 3rd gen?!?! WHAT?!?), then everything will still be alright in the world.
 
The rise of the plastic guns along with the increase in costs to produce steel pistols.

Glocks started showing up in the U.S. around that the time that S&W 3rd generation pistols were introduced in 1989. By 1992, both seemed to be fighting hard for attention and buyers' dollars. Glocks seemed to increase in price very slowly while 3rd Gens rose more quickly. Now it seems like it's become a plastic world. Is that progress? :confused:
 
Lets see,

1. they cost more (twice as much as a polymer gun)
2. they weigh more
3. they do nothing more

I always chuckle a little at the "Glock marketing killed the 3rd gen S&W" theory. I think progress killed the 3rd gen S&Ws. The majority of the shooting public has lost interest in the double/single action, exposed hammer all metal pistol. The consumer voted with their wallets, and S&W 3rd gen pistols lost. Painful for many here, the truth none the less.
 
I think what everyone else has said is true. The time to manufacture, costs of manufacture, and the profit from all that has caused S&W to do the sensible thing in order to stay in business: They have made 3rd gen autos a "special order" item and made polymer pistols as their prime breadwinners.

Now, as long as Smith and Wesson makes parts available for purchase to fix broken 3rd gen autos (broken 3rd gen?!?! WHAT?!?), then everything will still be alright in the world.

My department currently issues the 5906 and 6906. S&W stopped supporting the 6906 a few years ago. In the near future I think parts for the 5906 from the factory will become an issue.
 
I have a S&W 915 and it easily one of the best handling and most balanced 9mm pistols I own, and I have many.

My late production 5906 is super reliable and a very good gun.

I won't repeat what has been said above, every gun maker has gone to polymer for their semi-auto's and S&W has to stay competitive. They aren't going to stay tooled up to make 5906's to sell them to a niche market when they are selling M&P's hand over fist. Even Beretta has gone to poly frame guns with the Storm and the short-lived 90-Two series. They still make the 92fs and the 92A1 but alloy frame autos are being phased out.

Poly frame guns last longer, are just as light and are easier to make.

As for me, give me an all steel 5906 any day:)
 
Lets see,

1. they cost more (twice as much as a polymer gun)
2. they weigh more
3. they do nothing more

I always chuckle a little at the "Glock marketing killed the 3rd gen S&W" theory. I think progress killed the 3rd gen S&Ws. The majority of the shooting public has lost interest in the double/single action, exposed hammer all metal pistol. The consumer voted with their wallets, and S&W 3rd gen pistols lost. Painful for many here, the truth none the less.

....and Glock undercutting the market for 2 years ala Wal-Mart had nothing to do with it right? The fact they lost money and a lot of it per unit in order to undersell Smith and force competition out of the market is immaterial, correct? Neither the story or your assessment of Gen 3's is as simple as your post..
 
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