what would you consider to be realistic effective accuracy"

grumpyvette

grumpyvette

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back in the 1980-2000 or so I worked part time at a local indoor range teaching classes of about 6-8 people a week,
in the art & skill of shooting a handgun.
I enjoyed teaching, but I was always amazed at the lack of familiarity, and lack of basic handgun skill any of the trainees had!
this was a required skill to get a security guard license,
in FLA. at the time and may still be.
it took about 30 hours of training, and yeah, much of it was class room, not actual on the range time!
now keep in mind security guard jobs are not that well paid,
and they are frequently held by either younger guys with near zero other marketable skills (frequently minorities) (frequently not that educated , many could not read/write and pass written exams easily)
or older guys who want a secondary income in retirement.
class (D) is unarmed security and it pays considerably less per hour, class (G) paid more per hour so that was a coveted license.
the vast majority of the new trainees could not hit a full body silhouette target at 7 yards on the first day.
by the end of the class most of the more skilled people could hit a 8" x 11" sheet of typing paper at 25 yards which at the time was considered good enough, but obviously the more skilled people were preferred, It was surprising , at least to me how many people could not achieve that level of competency, slow firing a 38spc 4" revolver, we were trying to get them to consistently hit a 6" diameter target at 25 yards with 6 shots in 60 seconds.
how many of you think you can do better?
I had lots of cops watch this process and laugh, but when tested some cops did just as badly.... whats your thoughts?
 
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I’ve asked myself this question many times, often when disappointed with my performance at the range. If I shoot a poor group with fliers and everything is slightly low and left of where I was aiming because I squeezed my three bottom fingers or flinched, but the silhouette target shows what would obviously be some pretty bad trauma, is that “good enough”? Do you need to shoot 2 inch targets at 25 yards to be “good enough”?

Now that NJ has CCW, there is a qualification test - 50 rounds at distances between 7 and 25 yards - 40 hits on an FBI Q target is passing. I did a practice run with my CS9 and got 48 hits (96%). Is that good enough? It’s good enough to get my permit. I’d like to put all those rounds in one ragged hole like a pro, but I don’t get to the range enough to practice and ammo is expensive now and the CS9 is small and excuses excuses excuses but I just can never shoot as well as I’d like. I just hope I can shoot good enough if I’m ever in a really bad situation.
 
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I remember well on one occasion, a student stated the revolvers and ammo we used were low quality trash, and he could not consistently hit a full body target at 7 yards, I took his assigned pistol A S&W mod 10 heavy barrel, and put 6 shots in a 3" orange dot on the target at 7 yards as fast as I could line the sights and fire, certainly under 10 seconds, that seemed to solve the question of equipment not being adequate
 
For security or LE qualification, I consider a "realistic other measure" is to qualify as a Marksman on the IDPA qualifier, using the duty gun. The beginning shooter is not going to achieve that with one lesson or several days of lessons, but I've never seen an IDPA Marksman that couldn't breeze through the Oklahoma LE qualification or any state course.

I have helped some LE candidates (OK CLEET course) qualify by teaching them with IDPA stages, mixing up distances and on the clock.
Even for the relatively simple OK Carry License Course, showing how to shoot quickly at 3 yds helps some who want to shoot every shot painfully slow, aiming and aiming and...then yanking the trigger.
 
grumpyvette said:
I remember well on one occasion, a student stated the revolvers and ammo we used were low quality trash, and he could not consistently hit a full body target at 7 yards, I took his assigned pistol A S&W mod 10 heavy barrel, and put 6 shots in a 3" orange dot on the target at 7 yards as fast as I could line the sights and fire, certainly under 10 seconds, that seemed to solve the question of equipment not being adequate
Click to expand...

Been there, done that more than once. :D
 
grumpyvette said:
back in the 1980-2000 or so I worked part time at a local indoor range teaching classes of about 6-8 people a week,
in the art & skill of shooting a handgun.
I enjoyed teaching, but I was always amazed at the lack of familiarity, and lack of basic handgun skill any of the trainees had!
this was a required skill to get a security guard license,
in FLA. at the time and may still be.
it took about 30 hours of training, and yeah, much of it was class room, not actual on the range time!
now keep in mind security guard jobs are not that well paid,
and they are frequently held by either younger guys with near zero other marketable skills (frequently minorities) (frequently not that educated , many could not read/write and pass written exams easily)
or older guys who want a secondary income in retirement.
class (D) is unarmed security and it pays considerably less per hour, class (G) paid more per hour so that was a coveted license.
the vast majority of the new trainees could not hit a full body silhouette target at 7 yards on the first day.
by the end of the class most of the more skilled people could hit a 8" x 11" sheet of typing paper at 25 yards which at the time was considered good enough, but obviously the more skilled people were preferred, It was surprising , at least to me how many people could not achieve that level of competency, slow firing a 38spc 4" revolver, we were trying to get them to consistently hit a 6" diameter target at 25 yards with 6 shots in 60 seconds.
how many of you think you can do better?
I had lots of cops watch this process and laugh, but when tested some cops did just as badly.... whats your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Keeping almost all shots on a sheet of typing paper at 10 yards is good enough.
Typing paper hits at 5 yards okay for personal defense.
Typing paper hits at 10 to 15 yards for bank guards and warehouse security people will do.
Of course better skill is highly desirable, but realistically, the above will handle most situations, and private companies are just not going to invest the time and money in training their guards to shoot better.
 
grumpyvette said:
I remember well on one occasion, a student stated the revolvers and ammo we used were low quality trash, and he could not consistently hit a full body target at 7 yards, I took his assigned pistol A S&W mod 10 heavy barrel, and put 6 shots in a 3" orange dot on the target at 7 yards as fast as I could line the sights and fire, certainly under 10 seconds, that seemed to solve the question of equipment not being adequate
Click to expand...

If that guy couldn’t do it with a model 10, he’s never going to do it. My model 64s and 10s are the easiest guns I own to shoot. In fact it’s almost like cheating that he was using one lol.
 
grumpyvette said:
back in the 1980-2000 or so I worked part time at a local indoor range teaching classes of about 6-8 people a week,
in the art & skill of shooting a handgun.
I enjoyed teaching, but I was always amazed at the lack of familiarity, and lack of basic handgun skill any of the trainees had!
this was a required skill to get a security guard license,
in FLA. at the time and may still be.
it took about 30 hours of training, and yeah, much of it was class room, not actual on the range time!
now keep in mind security guard jobs are not that well paid,
and they are frequently held by either younger guys with near zero other marketable skills (frequently minorities) (frequently not that educated , many could not read/write and pass written exams easily)
or older guys who want a secondary income in retirement.
class (D) is unarmed security and it pays considerably less per hour, class (G) paid more per hour so that was a coveted license.
the vast majority of the new trainees could not hit a full body silhouette target at 7 yards on the first day.
by the end of the class most of the more skilled people could hit a 8" x 11" sheet of typing paper at 25 yards which at the time was considered good enough, but obviously the more skilled people were preferred, It was surprising , at least to me how many people could not achieve that level of competency, slow firing a 38spc 4" revolver, we were trying to get them to consistently hit a 6" diameter target at 25 yards with 6 shots in 60 seconds.
how many of you think you can do better?
I had lots of cops watch this process and laugh, but when tested some cops did just as badly.... whats your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Keeping almost all shots on a sheet of typing paper at 10 yards is good enough.
Typing paper hits at 5 yards okay for personal defense.
Typing paper hits at 10 to 15 yards for bank guards and warehouse security people will do.
Of course better skill is highly desirable, but realistically, the above will handle most situations, and private companies are just not going to invest the time and money in training their guards to shoot better.
 
A handgun and ammunition combination should (ideally) be good for an inch per ten yards, per ten yards, out to fifty, in my opinion. My experience has been that good quality guns and ammo will often do that, but not always. Of course better is preferred. When the shooter is added in the mix, 2-3x that standard is pretty common.

Another way to look at it… A “good shooter” will consistently score 80% or better on the NRA Pistol targets. The 8-ring on the 50-yard slow fire target is 8-inches.

Quality .22 target pistols are not addressed in this thinking. Naturally, it’s easier to shoot a decent score with .38 wadcutters than with full-charge .44 Magnums. ;)
 
Sounds like they would all majorly flunk the new “Eli Dickens Drill,” a hot, faddy, shooting-skills test currently in vogue among all the young, well-manicured tactical-trainer types. :rolleyes:

Said drill starts at 40-yards, 10 shots fired, and sees completion in an alleged 15-seconds. The first two shots can be done from a “braced” position.

But when factoring for the several seconds needed for the “good guy with a gun” (Dickens) to complete his OODA-loop, it’s going to be more like 10 shots in 10-12 seconds.

And at least one of those was a verified center-of-cranium head shot on the bad guy.
 
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This is a conversation that has to evolve with the times. It's very common to hear the statement that the majority of encounters happen at X distance, X distance typically being not very far. That statement is then used to legitimize the minimum level of accuracy or shooter/firearm efficiency.

When I hear that statement, it does befuddle my mind some and one has to ask how accurate is that statement given the times. I'm in the mindset most incidents can be avoided by simply not putting oneself in certain situations. The old adage of "nothing good happens after midnight" has some credence. Unless you have to, stay out of known trouble areas.

Given the times, an active shooter situation has to be considered. Heaven help the poor sole with their tried and true 38 snub who just happened to be at the local walmart and is forced to engage an active shooter from 3-4 aisles away. In that situation, being accurate enough to put rounds on target before they can do more harm has to be considered. Distance does allow some advantages such as cover and support, but how many of these modern firearms can be shot accurately enough to effectively conduct that lethal deterrence.
 
38 special - 10 shots inside 2" at 25 yards .

22 LR - 10 shots inside 1" at 25 yards

45 acp - 10 shots in 3" at 25 yards .

At least those are my limitations
Gary
 
The A zone on an ipsc target at speed would be my criteria. At speed means as fast as you safely can.
 

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ultratec00 said:
...tried and true 38 snub ...how many of these modern firearms can be shot accurately enough...
Click to expand...

I'd wager almost all of the guns in question would be capable of 10 inch groups or better at 50 meters. The REAL question is the shooter's abilities.

There are two parts to the accuracy problem. First is how consistent the weapon ammo combination, or simply how small are the groups. The second part is fire control, and that is predicting where those groups are going to form in relation to the aiming point.

The shooter affects both sides of that equation. Poor technique affects dispersion and shot placement. The pressure of time compounds the problem. Is the shooter who only practices 3 yard magazine dumps with groups you can cover with a poncho more or less prepared for the real world than the guy who has never shot anything but 2 inch groups, 50 yard slow fire?

The whole problem in a gunfight is you have to be accurate enough AND fast enough to score the first hit.
 
Frank Black said:
Sounds like they would all majorly flunk the new “Eli Dickens Drill,” a hot, faddy, shooting-skills test currently in vogue among all the young, well-manicured tactical-trainer types. :rolleyes:

Said drill starts at 40-yards, 10 shots fired, and sees completion in an alleged 15-seconds. The first two shots can be done from a “braced” position.

But when factoring for the several seconds needed for the “good guy with a gun” (Dickens) to complete his OODA-loop, it’s going to be more like 10 shots in 10-12 seconds.

And at least one of those was a verified center-of-cranium head shot on the bad guy.
Click to expand...

Where did u get cranium shot info? I’d like to read it. Could not find any in depth autopsy info online.
 
I think there’s a little more to discuss than simple marksmanship. :)

90% of defensive firearms encounters don’t involve shots fired. So know how to handle your gun and the circumstances under which you are legally justified to use it.

10% involve shots fired. Statistics show these will probably be at short distance with limited numbers of shots fired but not always, so practice to deliver accurate, multiple rounds as quickly as possible at varying distances. Perhaps 75% at 10 yards or less with shots contained on a pie plate?

One would think that a higher threat level (like being an armed guard in a major city) would be a powerful motivation for more practice, but for many denial is equally powerful.

Stay safe out there!
 
Totally agree a lot comes down to the shooter and some firearms are more shooter friendly. There are trick shooters who have demonstrated the accuracy of a 38 snub at ridiculous distances. That said, being able to keep an acceptable group with some firearms as the distance increases is a real challenge for most shooters.

I typically shoot off sandbags first to determine firearm inherent accuracy. If that firearm doesn't meet my criteria under a controlled environment, it will only get worse off hand. At that point it is either sold or retired.

old tanker said:
I'd wager almost all of the guns in question would be capable of 10 inch groups or better at 50 meters. The REAL question is the shooter's abilities.
Click to expand...
 
gwpercle said:
38 special - 10 shots inside 2" at 25 yards .

22 LR - 10 shots inside 1" at 25 yards

45 acp - 10 shots in 3" at 25 yards .

At least those are my limitations
Gary
Click to expand...

I have to call BS on this one. A very dedicated, experienced, Bullseye shooter of higher rank could probably pull some of these numbers off. But, he would be an extraordinary shot.

I have been shooting and hanging around shooting ranges frequented by shooters of all types for more than fifty years. I have seen some pretty good informal shooters. I have not yet met anyone who can walk up to the 25 yard line and shoot like this. I doubt if anyone else has. Yes, for sure there are a few people who can do it. But They are rare enough so most of us will never meet them.
 
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