10mm Auto For Bear Defense

[Texas Star]

Please don't post about which other calibers or guns you'd prefer. What I need to know (on a relative's behalf) is:

Will a 10mm auto, probably a Glock, suffice for defense against an Alaska grizzly, maybe a coastal brown bear, if the bullet is well placed at close range by a steady person?

This assumes that the shooter knows bear anatomy well.

The shooter is a woman whose hand size will not accomodate most powerful DA or SA revolvers, and she is much more comfortable shooting those autos which she can handle. She is not really attracted to revolvers, which is why my advice won't do.

I do know that the Glock 10mm has been recommended by such knowledgeable writers as the late Chuck Karwan, but I can't recall if he suggested it for a bear gun. He was writing about dangerous animals in general, and I can't find his article now.

Is there anyone here who has shot anything sizeable with that arm? How did it perform? Is it on par with the .41 Magnum, which I think would work, given precise placement?

Please, guys: don't let this degenerate into one of those threads where everyone posts what he'd rather have, etc. I posted this on behalf of another forum member who refused to post because he thought it'd just become another bear gun topic, with everyone giving his preference without sticking to the actual question.

Some discussion of 10mm auto bullet integrity as compared to equivalent .41 Magnum bullets would help. In particular, is it feasible to handload 10mm ammo with hard-cast Keith bullets of about 200-210 grains, and will they feed in the Glock?

I frankly am not enamored of Glocks. If the couple in question finds that a Glock 10mm won't fit her hand, they know that a Colt will, and the lady can shoot the .45 Govt. Model well. So, the Colt Delta Elite might be a viable option, although I have the impression that the 10mm overpowered that old design and the guns didn't last well.

FYI, the man in this case read that the Danish government issues 10mm Glocks to its forces in Greenland who might encounter polar bears. I suppose this suggests something, unless that is what Danes are melancholy about.

My only help was to suggest a minimum of .40 caliber, 200 grains, and min. velocity of 1,000 FPS, with 1200FPS being better, if obtainable at safe pressures. About what Jeff Cooper said was minimum for deer...

The couple is planning to move to Alaska later this year, and want to begin assembling their guns and other gear now. They have some suitable guns, but need handgun options.


Thanks,

T-Star

 

[Nicksterdemus]

All the loads I've seen put the 10mm well below the 41 magnum. I don't know about the plastique fantastique, but the S&W 1006 is a good steady platform w/nine rnd mag.

You'll need sumpthin' besides soft point and hollow point. I'm not sure if anyone makes a hard cast, heavy 10 round.

That being said the 357 has killed bears. Better than a spear or arrow, yet I wouldn't pick it out of the available calibers as a first choice.
-------------
I only have to concern myself w/blk bear. I wouldn't take a .40 S&W if I thought I'd run into one of those. If she can't handle an adequate sized wheelgun then I'd be concerned about her ability to fire multiple rnds of upper limit 10's in a timely and accurate fashion.

Let me tell you what the 10mm ain't.

It ain't no one round grizzly bear stopper.

They make little 16" brl model 92 carbines that can be though...

 

[VAdoublegunner]

I did some research on this last year when a friend of mine was planning a trip to Alaska. She handles her 4053 very well but I felt the 40 S&W was on the weak side so offered to let her use my 1006 with some hot handloads. From what I was able to find on the internet, there were a number of opinions that an "original" type 10mm loading with heavy non-hp bullets would be OK for most Alaskan bears, maybe minimal for the really big coastal ones. She shot the 1006 well enough, but decided it was too heavy, plus was not as practiced with its TDA, and ended up taking the 4053 anyway. So I made up some hot 40 S&W cast bullet loads for it with the idea that any gun was better than no gun and she was already very familiar with using her DAO gun in case it was needed. Fortunately she did not need it despite one very close bear "suprise" that was a high pucker factor moment indeed.

 

[Frank237]

Why not simply carry a 12 ga short shotgun with slugs? I know it's not as handy, but especially for someone who is not expert with a handgun, far easier to place some lead in the right spot.

I'm going through the same thing with a pair on non gun people who will be spending time in AK this coming summer. Neither is competant with any handgun CAPABLE of handling the big bears. They can accurately shoot .357 and lighter .41/.44 mag loads...thats it.

Yet give either of them an 870/Mossy500 with LE light recoil slugs or 00 buck and they ARE far more competant...even with the recoil.

I've thought of a glock 10mm as well .....but have zero experience with one. A Marlin lever in .45-70 would be worth looking into.

I have seen big bears and personally I'd carry a 12 ga and slugs. With a 6" M-29 and full power 300 gr LBT loads as a back up should I be away from or have lost the 870. The coastals and Kodiaks ARE huge. Nothing to be trifled with.

FN in MT

 

[oldRoger]

Double Tap 230gr@1120fps.

Here is a offering from Double Tap;
Whether it is adequate for the big bears I do not know. I would suggest that this is the best that could be done ammunition wise, I would shoot it in my 1006..... But only in desperation from my Kimber 1911-10MM.
10mm 230gr. WFNGC Hardcast 50rds
The heaviest and deepest penetrating 10mm in existence! This hardcast Wide Flat Nose Gas - Checked bullet will not deform on impact, and will create a large deep wound channel. Excellent for hunting or woods protection!

Caliber : 10mm

Bullet : 230gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast

Ballistics : 1120fps/ 641 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
1008fps / 519 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20
Glock 29 - 1075fps

 

[BigG-n-Tn]

My only concern with the Glock would be the recoil results from a polymer framed gun. I admit that I am speaking out of school because I have never shot the 10mm Glock. If they could handle a S&W 500, I would think that could get the job done. Especially the longer and ported barrel version. That would be a good compromise between the rifle and pistol I would think.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Why not simply carry a 12 ga short shotgun with slugs? I know it's not as handy, but especially for someone who is not expert with a handgun, far easier to place some lead in the right spot.

I'm going through the same thing with a pair on non gun people who will be spending time in AK this coming summer. Neither is competant with any handgun CAPABLE of handling the big bears. They can accurately shoot .357 and lighter .41/.44 mag loads...thats it.

Yet give either of them an 870/Mossy500 with LE light recoil slugs or 00 buck and they ARE far more competant...even with the recoil.

I've thought of a glock 10mm as well .....but have zero experience with one. A Marlin lever in .45-70 would be worth looking into.

I have seen big bears and personally I'd carry a 12 ga and slugs. With a 6" M-29 and full power 300 gr LBT loads as a back up should I be away from or have lost the 870. The coastals and Kodiaks ARE huge. Nothing to be trifled with.

FN in MT

I grew up hunting and fishing Alaska. I agree with the above post. Way too many people under estimate both brown and black bear.

To answer your question directly, the 10mm may or may not work. The same can be said for any handgun caliber short of the 44 magnum. Even these days the 44 mag is considered by some to be not powerful enough. As a kid growing up there the 44 was the biggest caliber we could get. In our hunting/fishing party almost everyone carried a 44 and at least two 12 gauge shotguns were very close by.

We put a bear down once that raided our camp while we were fishing. Ate everything. Bit holes in our coolers, trashed our tents and so on. Next morning an old timer waited for the bear to come back. One 12 gauge slug put the bear down.

My first concern with your lady friend and the Glock 22 or Colt is her ability to control the recoil enough for the gun to operate correctly. I've seen many who could not and limp wristed the gun. Because they are not as strong women must use technique over muscle to shoot accurately and effectively. She will have to practice with any auto she chooses.

I would choose a good revolver in 44 mag.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Also, choose the heaviest, hardest bullet you can find. I think Norma made the only full power 10MM load but I could be wrong. Double Tap or Buffalo Bore may have something to offer.

 

[Iggy]

From time to time I have to put a heifer or some other critter down due to injury or other.

I have carried a 10mm for years. IF I can get a clear, standing head shot where I can place the round precisely, I will shoot it with the 10mm.

I would not for any reason use it if I could not get that shot. Sadly, I learned a long time ago that the 10mm does not have the power to kill an 800 pound bovine cleanly or mercifully with a shot to the body.

I have a great respect for the 10mm, but I"m not sure I am a good enough shot to hit a bear exactly where I would want to, and I ain't too keen on that critter givin' me a 1911 suppository

 

[perrazi]

lead bullets in glocks are a bad idea. the flat nosed lbt type slugs also may not feed in an auto. also bad. real solution is to forget the handgun and use an appropriate long gun. 12 ga with slugs or carbine 45-70. even though both of those will have recoil, she won't notice it if it needs to be used. but,practice,practice,practice. this sort of sound like an accident waiting to happen though.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Although I no longer live there, I go back every year to fish with my dad. We ALWAYS have bear encounters. If they leave us alone then we leave them alone. We'll even walk the opposite way to avoid them. If they come within 50 or so yards we fire a shot in the air and most of the time they back off and turn around. If they come closer we shoot them with #7 or 8 birdshot in the rear. At 40-50 yards the birdshot does not penetrate thier hide but it usually gives them the incentive to go the other way. After 30+ years we have had more encounters with bear than we can remember. We have been chased several times as well. Usually when carrying fish. We only had to put one down.

As a teen I saw a brown bear take three rounds through the chest with a 338 win magnum. The bear ran 150 towards us before it dropped less than 100 feet away. Ever since then I've been terrified of them although I love them and respect them.

Currently when I go there I carry my fathers Ruger Blackhawk 44 mag and he carries a 12 ga. If my little brother goes he carries a S&W 460. Even though heavily armed, we still have to rely on situational awareness and pay attention to what goes on around us. Usually we can spot a troublesome bear and walk up or downstream to avoid them.

After all, they were there first and are just hungry.

 

[Wyo]

If you're going to use the 10mm in a Glock, note first that the Glock is not recommended for cast bullets in a factory barrel. A new barrel from Lone Wolf for $99 would make cast bullets feasible and, if the gun will feed them reliably, that would be my first choice. If you're going to use a factory barrel, you would probably have to go with a 200 gr. FMJ bullet, again loaded hot. Last choice in the 10mm would be a 200 fr. FMJ bullet factory load. Avoid anything that will expand like the plague. Having said all this, I have to agree with Iggy. I've used the 10mm for years and I have a lot of respect for it. If I had to use an autoloading handgun for bears, that would be my choice, probably in a Glock because of the extra rounds. But it wouldn't be my first choice by any means. I'll just leave it at that. Good luck.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

When I was working down learn Alpine and over toward the Guadalupe's (I assume you are familiar with these places as you profile says you were from Texas), I carried a G20 with 200 grn solid lead hard casts for puma and bear. Both were becoming common in the area and 16 rounds of very hot 10mm's was reasonably reassuring. Carry an extra mag or two and have at it.

Like others pointed out, a perfect shot is what it would take, but the odds are heavily stacked against you coming up against one in Texas. Yes they are here, but it is unlikely.

 

[therevjay]

I wouldn't really consider ANY sort of handgun for 'anti bear defense' (in Alaska) unless it was for some reason impossible to have a carbine, or 12ga.

 

[Texas Star]

THe couple is taking rifles and a shotgun. But a handgun on the person may be needed if they become separated from the shoulder arm, or it malfunctions.

Peter, I live in Texas; the couple in my post is moving to Alaska. Big difference.

T-Star

 

[Sprefix]

Sorry, not what you want to hear....But,

I've shot 10MM's with some wild ballistics. Friends of mine love to "push" things and see what bullets will do. A Glock WILL NOT TAKE HOT AMMO!!!!! The barrel is under-cut for feeding purposes(I guess). Hot ammo will leave a "smiley-face" pooched out in the brass--if you're lucky. Or, It will blow and split the frame and ruin your day, the gun, and the magazine. I've also had a catastrophic failure in a 1911 chambered in 10MM. I got a face full of shavings and powder. The magazine split in some weird ways, and the grip screws were stretched about three credit-card thicknesses. Thank God I had Aluma-grips on the gun or who knows what would have happened to my hand/hands. This also had a chamber that was not fully-supported. I have a Freedom Arms .454 Casull and that feels small when you are close to a big bear. My point here is that your "wants" for a gun (small, controllable, etc) don't leave very much room for a "capable" handgun, let alone a BEAR GUN!!! I shoot ammo that is "hot"...,180gr loads at 1400FPS---200gr hardcast at 1200FPS---135 Noslers at 1750 FPS(out of a Commander-Bobtail). None of these loads are Glock loads. They are shot in a Dan Wesson(commander-bobtail) 1911 that has had a bit of over-hauling so it will handle these loads regularly. Considering a small bear(250 lbs.) can wreck your day, you really need to impress upon your friends what a 700-800 pound bear can do in a few short seconds. Have them look up Bears or Alaskan Bears on You-tube and spend an hour there watching. Pose the "What gun should I get?" question then. Best of luck to you............,Sprefix

 

[Sprefix]

Food for thought...............

This guy lives just outside of Soldotna,Alaska

Have I got a story for you guys!


King salmon season is over, and since I had a day off before silvers start, I thought I would go for a walk! This occurred at 11:16 am this morning (Sunday), just 2/10 of a mile from my house, ON OUR ROAD while walking
my dogs (trying to get in shape for hunting season, ironically!) For the record, this is in a residential area - not back in the woods, no bow hunting, no stealth occurring...

I heard a twig snap, and looked back...full on charge - a huge brownie, ears back, head low and motorin' full speed! Came with zero warning; no Woof, no popping of the teeth, no standing up, nothing like what you think or see on TV! It charged from less than 20 yards and was on me in About one-second! Totally surreal - I just started shooting in the general direction, and praise God that my second shot (or was it my third?) rolled him at 5 feet and he skidded to a stop 10 feet BEYOND where I was shooting from. I actually sidestepped him and fell over backwards on the last shot, and his momentum carried him to a stop past where I fired my first shot!

It was a prehistoric old boar - no teeth, no fat-weighed between 900-1000 lbs and took five men to DRAG it onto a tilt-bed trailer! Big bear - its paw measured out at about a 9 1/2 footer!

Never-ever-thought "it" would happen to me! It's always some other smuck, right? Well, no bull- I am still high on adrenaline, with my gut in a Knot. Feels like I did 10000 crunches without stopping! Almost puked for an hour after, had the burps and couldn't even stand up as the troopers conducted their investigation! Totally wiped me out - can't even put that feeling into words, by far the most emotion I have ever felt at once!

No doubt that God was with me, as I brought my Ruger .454 Casull (and some "hot" 350 grain solids) just for the heck of it, and managed to Draw and snap shoot (pointed, never even aimed!) from the hip! Total luck shot!

All I can say is Praise God for my safety and for choosing to leave the wife and kids at home on this walk! Got a charter tomorrow, so gonna TRY to get some sleep now!

Talk to ya soon, -Greg

 

[m1gunner]

"Will a 10mm auto, probably a Glock, suffice for defense against an Alaska grizzly, maybe a coastal brown bear, if the bullet is well placed at close range by a steady person?"

The answer to this question is "No", it will not suffice.

 

[jkc]

My experience with elk and black bears leads me to think that anyone hoping to stop an aggressive brown bear with any conventional handgun is indulging in delerious, delusional, wishful thinking. Sure, a handgun is better that an axe, or flashlight, or canoe paddle, but not by much. I even question the efficacy of 12 ga. slugs --- lots of delivered energy, to be sure, but doubtful penetration (I think they're "recommended", i.e., "suggested" because shotguns are inexpensive, not because they're especially effective...) I wouldn't want to be more than arms length from a potent rifle in brown bear country, where and when conflicts are predictable. Note what Iggy said about the limitations of 10mm pistol ammo to take down cattle --- a far cry from an aggressive bear.

 

[TXSWFAN]

If the G20 fits her hand and she's comfortable with it, get them to add a Lone Wolf 6" barrel to it.

Lone Wolf Distributors - Product Detail

Using the longer barrel with Double Tap 200 or 230 gn. solids should give it a little more velocity/penetration.

Plus she'll have 15 shots. I'm sure even a brown bear won't like that very much.

10mm is my favorite handgun cartridge. Great for hogs, yotes and such. We don't have bears in my neck of the woods.