10mm Auto For Bear Defense

[somecomeget]

+2

Maybe the 10mm can do the job in 8 or 9.

The constraints start with selecting an autoloader that a girl can use to defend against a large bear. I add that it could be said this bear is charging her. My argument is partially based on a quote from Dick Metcalf who is the author of "Handgunning For Bears" which was published in Petersen's Hunting Magazine. Since he says ANY BLACK BEAR, he limits it to 500 to even 800 Lbs bears. The largest Black Bear on record was over 800 Lbs. Now some people on the thread say that penetration is very important when stopping large powerful game and that solids are needed. I say that based on the dimensions of a large bears head that penetration needs to be at least 10.5 inches of thick hide, jaw muscle and skull bone and that stopping power is needed. You can tell I'm visualizing a head shot. I think a head shot to the cranio-ocular cavity is a best case scenario. Factors like accuracy and reliability of the firearm are considered. That being said, the constraints are satisfied by the following selection.

The Glock 20 in 10mm Auto; hand loads of 180 grain Gold Dot Hollow Point charged with 10.5 grains of Blue Dot powder, using CCI large pistol primers, and new Federal brass case. The user having three 15 round magazines all bundled up in a Desantis shoulder holster; this being most practical for Alaska type environment.


Why the Glock 20? 1. Functional Reliability, 2. Ease of Use, 3. Stopping Power, 4. Fire Power, 5. Versatility, 6. Availability, 7. Availability of Night Sights 8. Cost.

Why the 10mm? The 10mm Auto will push a 200 grain slug at a max velocity of about 1,100 feet per second producing 537 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. The sectional density is .161 and I'm not sure if this is considered big bore but it's not little. I do know that the 10mm Auto takes large pistol primers. Keep in mind this information is based on safer data, there are some loads that actually outperform the preceeding in terms of muzzle energy but I don't feel that they are as safe. This Following link is a load pushing a 200 grain slug traveling at 1300 feet per second and producing 750 foot pounds at the muzzle! These guys really push it. I would not select this ammo because I prefer jacketed and don't feel it's important to abuse my firearms that much. Plus the lead fouling would be terrible to try and clean out.

Why Gold Dot; Bonded Bullets? It may not be a "solid"; its better, having controlled expansion resulting in deeper penetration than other hollowpoints but having better stopping power than a solid. GD Bonded HP's out perform all other Hollow Point and Solid bullets in the .40cal, especially when used in 10mm Auto full power loads for bear defense; handloading is necessary because there does not seem to be a 10mm Auto Full Power load for 180 Grain GDHP on the market probably due to the .40 S&W craze, none the less, the GDHP Bonded is the first HP bullet to retain it's mass at 95% on average, some studies show 100% mass retention in 10% ballistic gellatin, the best retention of mass of any bullet since 1965 meaning it will penetrate well and have controlled expansion regardless. This is because the bonded jacket-core bond is stronger than the bond lead has to itself. Since the bullet needs to penetrate and cause a large temporary wound cavity with a large permanent wound channel the bullet has to have (controlled mushroom or expansion). Since 10.5 inches of thick skull bone, hide and muscle is the minimum depth any bullet would need to travel the 180 grain GDHP will actually work because when handloaded it can safely reach the max velocity of about 1250 feet per second and producing 624 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle if using 10.5 grains of blue dot (the max powder charge) and since it's a GDHP bullet the expansion is delayed for best penetration. Note: the sectional density of a .40 cal bullet that weights 180 grains is .161; if anyone cares.

Why Blue Dot. This powder is the best for this purpose based on performance and availability.
Why carry three magazines? For if you drop your piece in a river. (speaking from experience) It's nice to know you have two other dry mags.

Psychological factors.

No firearm will make you feel better about being charged by a bear. Note: If a .45 Auto and .40S&W can kill a bear so can a 10mm Auto by definition.
CONCLUSION: The best way to get the 10mm Auto to work for large bear defense is to use a Glock Model 20 with 15+1 capacity and fill the magazine with hand loads of the 180grain GDHP carrying a charge of 10.5 grains of Blue Dot powder in a new federal 10mm Auto case using a CCI large pistol primer that is quality checked by an experience hand loader. GETSOME!


I should note, handloading requires skill, if you decide to handload make sure you have an experienced hand loader show you the ropes first and make sure you follow the book.

 

[yaktamer]

Having taken a black bear with a .357 mag, I'd be hesitant to recommend a 10mm even for that. Definitely not suitable for grizzly/brown. As far as the hypothetical perfectly placed shot, I guess I'd want to know how you can plan for that (assuming that the bear isn't already asleep, drugged or dead).

 

[somecomeget]

Having taken a black bear with a .357 mag, I'd be hesitant to recommend a 10mm even for that. Definitely not suitable for grizzly/brown. As far as the hypothetical perfectly placed shot, I guess I'd want to know how you can plan for that (assuming that the bear isn't already asleep, drugged or dead).

The MAXIMUM muzzle energy of a .357 Magnum is 710 foot pounds. The MAXIMUM muzzle energy of the 10mm is 750 foot pounds. Keep in mind this is not what most people buy on the market, we are talking like, absolute max. This energy level is higher than what most company's will load and is not really recommended for hand loaders either I'm sure it depends on the firearm a little too, but it's the double tap ammo maximum muzzle energy for each caliber, that I could find anyway. I only mention this here because it's a starting point for comparing the calibers. The specific round you used is unknown to us, so we can't say you used the right load and it was probably considerably less powerful than the max especially if you purchased it commercially. The MAX muzzle energy of a .44Mag is around 1,533 foot pounds. The MAX muzzle energy of a .454 casull can be up to 1,923 foot pounds. Mostly irrelevant because the problem is: it's a girl who hates revolvers and I would assume that she is the type of person who won't pay $1100 for a gat she does not want. The 10mm Auto if used in a G20 comes with a 15 round mag which is better than a .357 Magnum that holds 6-7 rounds. See comment #120 Mathew 6:19-34 and Peter 5:6,7

 

[yaktamer]

Sorry, but an angry, charging grizzly doesn't care that the prey is a girl, doesn't like revolvers or doesn't have $1100 (by the way, you can get a new Ruger Redhawk in 45LC or 44 mag for $645). I know I'm wasting my breath here, because it's obvious no argument will convince you that a 10mm is inadequate, whether fired from a SIG, a Colt or the much-worshipped Glock. CAN you kill a bear with one? Sure. I'm sure that somewhere, sometime a grizzly has been killed by a lucky shot from a .22. Of course the 10mm is better than nothing. But look at your own stats re: energy of a 10mm vs. 44 mag or 454. As far as the 15 round capacity, if she has time to get off 15 rounds, it's probably not a self-defense situation, Grizzly attacks are often quick, without warning, in cover and at short distances. I would also suggest that hollow points are not the best choice. With bears, especially the big bears, penetration is more important than expansion. One of the hollow points we recovered from my black bear penetrated the hide, hit a rib, and stopped without really doing any damage.

Of course, the up side is that the odds of being attacked are, statistically speaking, almost zero. If your friend is that concerned, though, I would suggest she either learn to deal with heavier recoil or travel with someone who is adequately armed.

 

[CoolStuffZone]

Minimal Protection

I carry a .45 Super ( 230 grain FP & 1200 fps handload ) when I go camping, and feel pretty safe against black bears and mountain lions. Since the 10mm and the .45 Super are very similar in terms of performance, I would feel pretty safe with a 10mm as well. Now if I was in Grizzly Bear country, I would want to carry a 12 gauge or some other rifle. The absolute best defense against a bear charge is to have a can of bear spray, and be prepared to roll up in a ball and play dead. Even better is just to avoid dangerous animals all together; it's not too difficult

 

[John3200]

Expanding bullets vs solids. I'd like to point out what I believe to be the main point between the two and their purpose in my mind. It's much like shotgun chokes.

The reason we don't us solids on lighter, thin skined game, 2 or 4 legged is because the solid will pass on through, not dumping it's energy in a vital area. So, we use an expanding bullet to help dump that energy where it will do the most good (or bad depending on your point of view).

On a heavy, thick skinned, boned and muscled critter you need to penetrate to the vitals and dump that bullet energy there to do as much damage as possible there. An expanding bullet will just not get to the important stuff.

Just like there is no good or bad to tight choked vs open choked in a shotgun in general, there is no good or bad in expanding bullets vs solids. The main idea is to get to the vitals and do the damage there, not before and not after.

 

[John3200]

As far as 10mm for bear... As a backup, it's better then nothing so if it's what she can handle, go for it. The simple matter of fact is ALL handguns are too small but they are handy so something is better then nothing.

 

[Sven]

As much as I like discussions about the 10mm (and Delta Elites), I do hope the original poster and his friends made a good decision sometime in the past 2 years.

 

[BearBio]

I'm not going to advocate anything in particular but have a few observations to share:

I work for a govt agency. I have several friends, numerous acquaintances, have researched this issue for my staff (we live and work in grizzly country=granted they are pretty rare this far south), have seen about 2 dozen wild grizzlies in Alaska and the lower 48. Been charged by a black bear (~400 lbs) and wrote a thesis on black bear behavior for my MS.

1) Our staff in Alaska use Brenneke slugs in a 12 gauge. The staff at Kenai Fjords killed 28 bears in defense of life or property in 2010.
2) We universally agree on pepper spray versus a handgun. I teach the use of bear spray, so I know its limitations.
3) At a recent workshop I palled around with a guy from Canadian Forest Service. He said, most victims they find have rifles still on their shoulders--They are THAT fast.
4) Whatever you use, it had better be in your hand. Rifle or handgun (or pepper spray in a holster), you better be holding it.

That being said, what do I use?:

1) First defense: Situational awareness and good woods sense.

2) Second chance (back-up): Pepper spray.

3) Third choice: Ruger 45 Colt with hot 300 gr hardcast lead handloads.

Is the 10mm enough gun? Yes, it could be. Or, it might not. That's the answer I would give regarding any handgun. The bigger and more powerful, the better.

A guy in Denali killed a grizzly with a 1911 in 45 acp last year. Took a whole clip but I've been where he did it and he had no choice==there isn't a tree for at least 5 miles.

Regardless, it's a **** shoot and you take your chances with whatever!

 

[growr]

west yellowstone

Great comment! Seeing Reggie live and in person sort of puts it all into perspective doesn't it? What incredible strength and power!!!

Randy

I'm amused whenever I read these "handguns for bear" threads, same as the elk threads on some of the hunting forums.

Anyway...If any of you ever get near West Yellowstone Montana absolutely visit the Grizzly Interpritive Center. You will be within twelve feet of the big coastal grizzly's and Kodiaks.

Take a look at those guys up close..then rethink any ideas of using a pistol on them.

FN in MT

 

[BearBio]

I do a presentation on bears each summer for State Parks and one of the pictures I use shows a cargo container (Like the trailer from a semi rig) torn apart by several bears in Anchorage. I remember, as a kid, seeing a '52 Chevy trunk pried open by a black bear in Yosemite. Got his claws in the crack and peeled it back like a can of corned beef!

 

[Cocked & Locked]

I like Bear Threads

 

[KimRan]

10mm

Generally has the same ballistics of a .41 magnum IF it is shot out of a 9" barrel. Lone Wolf makes em for the Glock 10mm.

 

[cowart]

The best/heaviest factory ammo in 10mm is probably the Buffalo Bore - see
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114

 

[BigBoy99]

12 ga with slugs or carbine 45-70. even though both of those will have recoil.

How about this?


https://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-4570-Revolver-75-inch-Barrel.asp

 

[BearBio]

Jim: I don't have direct experience in stopping bears, especially big ones. My area of expertise, if I have one is in behavior. However, based on the one charge I experienced while doing field research (and a few terrified bears going in the opposite direction), you would be EXTREMELY lucky to get more than one shot off during a true charge.

I do not have experience with the 10mm but do have a fair amount with a 41 mag. If the loads are comparable, I would consider it marginal (of course, shot placement is key). Our guys in Alaska use 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs for bears.

Personally, I carry a 454 or hot 45 when in bear country.

Take my opinion for what you paid for it!

 

[GatorFarmer]

Necro bear thread. Though appropriate since they have been in the news lately.

The Danes issue the Glock 20 to their special arctic patrol for use against Polar bears. I have no idea what the issue load is.

Weihrauch single action revolvers are less than $400 at times. EAA imports them for the American market. The one I had for a while worked fine.

 

[Malpasowildlifer]

I took a Larry Vicker's 1911 class in May. He is not into 10mms but recommended the Glock 20 for backwoods defense for two and four legged critters and I believe he said he feels the Glock 20 is the best platform for the 10mm.

But, I'm not sure it would be adequate for any bear larger than a black bear.

You'd have to switch out the factory barrel on a Glock 20 to shoot cast bullets. I know some folks say they shoot lead in Glocks but I'd switch out the barrel.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

No experience with big bears but if a 10mm Glock is what she can handle well, it probably beats a sharp stick.

Maybe carry the sharp stick and a 45-70 lever gun as well.

In any case, she would have 15 rounds at her disposal which she may need. Better to hit well with a 10mm than to miss with a 44.

I like the 10mm-45/70 combo platter.

Danged ole Ruger 44 Redhawk weighs in around three lbs unloaded.

If memory still serves.

 

[inspcalahan]

**updated to apologize for taking part in keeping a thread older than some peoples kids who are already in school....just now noticed the date it started.....**

I won't go into too much detail or opinion, because akviper pretty much already laid it all out there. My experience is pretty much the same. Around town, when we have to put bears down it's almost always with the 12ga Brenneke slugs. They work well.

When I'm out in the woods, I always have a pistol on me - I do have a Glock 10mm stuffed with the heavy cast Buffalo Bore loads. Contrary to internet rumor, you can shoot the lead cast bullets in a Glock just fine. The key is to maintain your pistol. This means clean it and use a lead remover. If you don't maintain and clean it, it could build up lead making it dangerous. Seriously, how many rounds of that load does one shoot through their gun? I'm betting not more than a box or two. I also have a Sig P220 (oddly enough sold to me from Kenny at WWG a few years back) stainless in 10mm that has become a constant woods companion - check them out! Great pistols.

And as mentioned - I mostly have a .45-70 stuffed full of bear missiles nearby. The latest one is my new stainless Henry lever gun.

The last time I was charged by a sow with cubs, while hunting Brownies down near Yakutat, I had a .338 wing in my hands. When it happens, not even that caliber feels adequate, but you always go with what you have.

For what it's worth, almost all of my friends (most lifelong Alaskans who frequent the outdoors) also carry the Glock or Sig 10mms. There's still a few .44 mag shooters out there as well. As for the .460/.500 crew - good luck. Don't get me wrong. I own one of the Smith PC .460s for hunting, but it's too much under stress with an up close charging Grizz - you'll likely get the first round off (hope it hits), become deaf and miss with any more rounds you manage to crank off. Those guns, unless you're the Hulk and get about $10k in practice ammo through them per year, are not "fighting guns", plus they carry like having an anchor strapped to your side. Hits count. Always.
Just my opinions, based on doing it for a bit.

Wild West Guns handle Colt and Sig handguns mostly so I don't think Kenny is pushing Glocks for bear defense. He is however, personally acquainted with one or more people who have used the 10mm for bear defense. If anything, Kenny will recommend one of their custom 454s over any lesser caliber.

I do not claim to be an expert but dealt with Alaskan bears for over 30 years. The city animal control department was under the police department and our officers often had to assist the animal control officer with bears.

Ignorant people leave garbage and dog food outside and train the bears to search for food in and around the residential areas of our town. Our educational pamphlet says "a fed bear is a dead bear". Once the bears make the people + house = food connection they become bolder and more aggressive. Transplanting the bears to a different area does not work as they return so they are killed. This unfortunate duty falls to the police department.

Our brown bears are much larger than the interior grizzly due to the summer salmon diet. Our black bears are pretty much normal sized and not as big as the coastal browns.

We killed several bears every summer. We used barrel traps and took them to the landfill and shot them inside the traps. Most of our officers carried 45 autos. I know for a fact that the Federal Hydra-Shok 230 grain hollow point will penetrate the top of even the largest bear's skull every time. 44 magnums and Brenneke slugs worked very well too. Would I venture into bad bear country armed with a 45 auto, HELL NO, but it can kill a bear.

I personally know two people who killed charging interior grizzly bears with handguns. The first was a woman who was was armed with a four inch Model 19 with Remington 158 grain soft points. She shot the bear in the head and chest as it was charging her. The bear veered off to the side of her and began thrashing and biting at the wounds. She reloaded twice, shooting the bear a total of 18 times.

The second involved an acquaintance who thought it would be thrilling to bow hunt a grizzly. He got the ultimate rush when he hit the bear with the arrow and it promptly charged. His best friend (or so he thought) was backing him up with a 12 gauge. When the bear charged the buddy ran. The bear was on Bruce in a few seconds and began biting and clawing him about the arm, head, and back. Bruce carried a Desert Eagle 44 and was able to get it out. When the bear pinned him on the ground he pressed the muzzle into the bears neck and emptied the gun. Miraculously, the gun did not malfunction. Bruce survived and the bear did not.

Google Alaska bear attacks and you will find a few each year where handguns killed aggressive bears.

My advice in a nutshell, no handgun is adequate against an angry bear. Carry the biggest caliber rifle or a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs and be proficient with it. If you are visiting a national park you may be forced to carry a handgun. If your friend is good with a Glock 20 and you load it with the right ammo, it will beat the hell out of teeth and fingernails in a bear fight. The Glock has lots of shots, is lightweight, and nearly corrosion free. I once schooled a visiting cousin in the art of a Remington 12 gauge for her visit. When we caught up with her on the trail a few day later, she did not have the gun. She left it in the car as it was too heavy and she felt weird as most of the other hikers were unarmed. She would have been better off with the most powerful handgun she could shoot well.

My standard summer bear carry is a Marlin 45/70 loaded with 430 grain hard cast at 1900 fps. My handgun is a S&W 329 loaded with 300 grain hard cast. Both feel pretty puny when a big bear is acting like he would like to invade my space. I do not see the point of carrying a five or six pound handgun when I can carry a heavy caliber rifle for about the same weight. I thought the whole point of a handgun is to be easier to pack.

I saw buckshot advocated for bears. Pattern your shotgun and you will see that buckshot is a very short range proposition. You do not have the ability to dispatch a wounded bear that might move away from you. Heavy slugs are much better. I would not want to wait for a charging bear to get within ten or fifteen yards so I could use buckshot.

Now, let's discuss which is better, 9mm or 45 or maybe bias ply tires vs. radial ply tires.