125 vs 158 For Accuracy

[Jerryatric3]

Researching 125 vs 158 in 38 Special all I see is comments on stopping power. Would like to know if there is a difference in accuracy between the two? Presently using 158 SWC cast with 4.0 gr of Trail Boss. Groups well and getting high 700's fps. With 125's charts say should see high 900's fps. Using them in a 640 Pro Series, 4" and 6" 686. I know it depends on the gun and the load but is one GENERALLY more ACCURATE than the other???

 

[Maximumbob54]

I doubt it will ever be enough for you to see but I would think the 158gr having more bore riding surface would be the more accurate. I've shot both weights and more in an 1892 and at a hundred yards both hit the target as well as I can aim.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

My experience is 158's are generally more accurate than 125's in lead. The issue is alignment in the bore which the 158's (if properly designed) tend to do automatically.

I like your trailboss loads. I go a bit higher than that for my 38 specials with 158's and find the accuracy improves if you add a bit more. The Hodgedon's site explains how to work up loads for trailboss if you are interested in experimenting.

 

[Jerryatric3]

My experience is 158's are generally more accurate than 125's in lead. The issue is alignment in the bore which the 158's (if properly designed) tend to do automatically.

I like your trailboss loads. I go a bit higher than that for my 38 specials with 158's and find the accuracy improves if you add a bit more. The Hodgedon's site explains how to work up loads for trailboss if you are interested in experimenting.

Really like Trail Boss. Started using it in .45 ACP and it runs all my Colts just fine. Have found it has definite "sweet" spots though. Trail Boss says 4.2 gr for the 158 is max (and it does seem to almost fill the case to bullet seating depth). Out of my 6" 686 4.2 was more of a pattern than a group while 4.0 grouped well. What loads have you found to work best??

 

[Peter M. Eick]

My notes say 4.0 is good but 4.3 grns is more accurate in my 38/44's.

My safety check with trailboss is to make sure you don't break any donuts in loading then shake the round to make sure the powder still moves. 4.3 grns will shake in starline brass and is quite accurate.

I do agree that 4.0 is my fallback range but 4.3 is a hair better.

 

[2ndAmendmentNut]

In my experience both make about the same size group. However, every fixed sight revolver I have used shoots 125gr loads unacceptably low at 15 and 25 yards.

 

[ChuckS1]

What's your definition of "accuracy"? That makes a big difference. I shoot at 25 yards, so with my K-38 I'm looking for 1-2" groups for a 158 grain bullet. But, if you're looking at 10-15 yards, then just about anything should get you on the target. After all my years of reloading and bullseye shooting, the most important variables I've found to finding the most accurate load, whether it's for my M1911s or my K-38, were keeping the front sight in focus and pulling the trigger straight back. Master those two and just about any load is an accurate one.

In the meantime, my DR load is an RCBS 38-150 LSWC and 3.6 grains of Bullseye.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

What is your definition of a "group"?

I shoot at between 15 and 25 yrds. Right now I am back at 15 as I have not shot much lately but I will switch back to 25 next month.

I shoot 50 shot groups. I figure anything less than 50 shots on one piece of paper is just fooling myself as it is too easy to luck into a decent 5, 6 or even 10 shot group. It is not until you put a full box into one piece of paper that I can see how well a load does.

So to answer your question:

Here is 50 shots on paper at 15 yrds. This is a decent group but I could do better say:

Again, 50 shots, 15 yrds.

To show how my skills have dropped back this is from a week ago:

50 shots, 15 yrds.

So my definition of good accuracy is:

50 shots, 15 yrds.

When I can duplicate the target like above most if not every day at 15 yrds, I move to 25 yards. I was at that stage when the most recent crunch in supplies came and I have lost my skills over the last 18 months. Now that resources are coming good again, I intent to catch back up and work my way up to 50 yrds maybe in a few years. My goal is the above accuracy at 50 yrds in say 5 years.

 

[nedlate]

Peter-Are these the same loads or 2 different loads? 4.3 Trail Boss? OOPS-Looks like moon clips! That must be a 45ACP?
Thanks
Ed

I shoot at between 15 and 25 yrds. Right now I am back at 15 as I have not shot much lately but I will switch back to 25 next month.

Here is 50 shots on paper at 15 yrds. This is a decent group but I could do better say:

Again, 50 shots, 15 yrds.

 

[AQBill]

Nice shooting Peter! Is that K-38?

 

[Jerryatric3]

Have to agree with others....some very nice shooting there Peter. Most of my shooting is at 25 yards and, like you, I would like to be able to get decent groups at 50 yards. I've settled on my 45 ACP load and now want a 38 Special load that will group well. Figure if they group well the rest is up to me. Have always shot 158 gr but would like to develop a 125 gr so I can get a little more velocity. Soooo...is the 125 gr just as capable as the 158??

Here's my 50 round group with the .45 (oops, drop that 0)
Gold Cup 45ACP 200 gr cast SWC with 4.6 Trail Boss. Rest at 25 yards.

 

[Jerryatric3]

Guess I was hoping some of the experts would say "don't bother with the 125 gr". Guess I'll have to find out the hard/fun way.

Just ordered 500 xtreme plated 125 and 500 xtreme plated 158 SWC's. Plated probably adding another variable but might as well explore....started casting and shooting 158 gr SWC in the 60's and guess never saw a reason to use anything else. Now my kids are telling me there are other powders besides 2400 and Bullseye and they make a lot of different bullets besides the 158 SWC. Guess I'll find out soon enough if I should stick my head back in the sand......

 

[Nevada Ed]

M49 snub at 10 feet
Rem 125gr
Red 842fps 5 @ 1.51
Green 905fps 5@ 1.04

Mag-Tech 158 LRN
TrailBoss 570fps 5@ .54
Bullseye 572fps 5@ 1.14
Green Dot 822fps 5@ 1.51

M686 6" 25 yards
125gr Xtp
w231 ... 945fps 6@ 1.05
Unique 1099fps 6@ 1.11

158 Lswc
Trail 4.2 770fps 6@ 1.26
Bullseye 775fps 6@ 1.16
Red Dot 890fps 6@ .71
w231 .... 890fps 6@ 1.16
Unique 1014fps 6@ 1.19

Every gun is different.

 

[87hurricane]

I've had very good accuracy results with 125g XTPs in .357, haven't spent as much time working up a really good .38 load, but what I have developed seemed to work fairly well. There definitely is a POI difference between the 125s and 158s, and I've found my model 10 seems to prefer 158s, if I remember correctly, the 125s shot high and left for me, but still grouped well. I think the accuracy is there with 125s, probably worth a try at least

 

[chief38]

For my .38 Specials I load a hard cast (16 BHN) 158 grain RNL bullet over 3.2 grains of Titegroup. It will produce about 725 - 775 fps depending on what barrel length it is shot from, is highly accurate, produces little leading, prolongs case life and powder use. I don't need to fire HOT bullets at paper targets since they are not shooting back at me. The bonus here us that fixed sighted .38 Special revolvers are usually sighted in POA=POI with a 158 grainer, NOT the lighter 125's so if you shoot them from a gun without adjustable sights you should be pretty much on target.

For Self Defense I do NOT use reloaded ammo. I use Buffalo Bore HEAVY +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC which is basically a .357 Magnum in a .38 Special case. Out of my 2" M60 it produces an HONEST 1040 fps, 1165 from a 4" and from a 6" bbl. about 1200 fps - which are .357 Magnum velocities without the muzzle flash, violent recoil and wear and tear on the gun.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Question to me on the Trailboss. No, none where trailboss and yes that is a pre-25 45 acp round. Trailboss can be just as accurate. I just don't have handy pictures on the ftp site.

 

[BigBill]

I had a 357mag python with a 6" barrel that I could ping any small rock that I could see at 100yds on the berm at will. I was using my 140he jhp Speer reloads. I never tried the 140he Speer bullets in the 38 special.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Here is 50 shots from the Python at 15 yrds with a max charge of trailboss and a 158 LSWC. I agree my Python can be exceptionally accurate and a lot of fun. It works extremely well with lead bullets.

Just as a comparison, here is the same gun, shot with a max load of 2400 (15.4 grns of 2400, and a 158 LSWC if I remember right). Note that it is a tighter group and more consistent than the trailboss.