15-22 as a home defense weapon?

[PortRoyalDad]

Practice-Practice-Practice

Just my .02 cents worth of opinion.

I had to take a class for obtaining my Concealed Carry permit...about 12 years ago, Virginia. The range I went to was offering the class. It was pretty awesome: Firearms safety instruction, shooting stances, conceal carry techniques, a session with a prosecuting attorney, plus a shooting exam, all of which was a three week class...met Saturday evenings. But the coolest part was a session in home defense.

- No FMJ: Too much penetration; you want something that will stop inside a body and cause as much tissue damage as possible. Shotgun was best for high stress.
- Anything is better than nothing.
- Situational awareness first. Always gather family members to a single point. think phone, exit points.
- Situational awareness: Aim for the center of mass and empty the magazine. No sniper one-shot-one kill stuff. Lawyers will eat you up.
- With muzzle rise, stomach shots become chest shots become throat, spine, and face shots. Think of all the vitals and soft tissue.

In my humble opinion in as far as using .22, most perps are cowards looking to exploit someone's weakness, either physical and/or tactical; unless you're in bad with some mafia types . But I will submit that at the first sound of gun fire there'll be asses and elbows, and with twenty-five rounds of .22 LR from an M&P 15-22 to the stomach, chest, throat and face, you will send a very, very strong message to the perp that you mean business.

Next time at the range, take some hard targets…not just paper. Coconuts, coffee cans filled with water, watermelons, plywood, drywall, 2x6's, old laptop computer (my favorite ), etc…a blast of .22LR can wreak havoc. If this is all you have, I personally would not want to be on the receiving end of 1,000 grains of hot, pointy lead. (Think I did the math right, 40 grain x 25 rounds)??

Again, just my .02 cents worth of opinion. Use what you have available...but be proficient, and have an exit strategy.

Regards, Mike

 

[Kayback]

Shotguns require too much user input. It is too easy to mess up a shotgun under high stress. And any malfunction with one is a fight stopper.

If you are worried about noise, buy a suppressor. While out won't turn an AR.into indoor hearing safe it will moderate the noise. A 12 guage indoors isn't fun.

As a defence gun the 15-22 is questionable at best. While it can work the margins of error are not in its favour. It will be an investment equal to the 15-22 but a suppressed short barrel 5.56mm rifle loaded with frangible rounds is probably your best bet. Simple user interface, able to easily take a white light for target ID and a red dot optic. easy too use, easy to fix if it stops rapidly able to reload if you need to.

Of course getting one now may be difficult our expensive.

Forget about 50% of the garbage in this thread about not killing the bad guy. If you shoot someone you are employing lethal force. By the very act you are, by law, trying to kill them. Using anything that reduces this level of force is silly. If you aren't justified in killing them with your first shot you shouldn't be shooting at all. Any decent lawyer will be able to counter any problem questions about hollow point bullets or equipment by calling in experts. Remember it all hinges on you being correct in shooting in the first pace.

Get a rifle, get proper training with it. In the mean time if the 15-22 is all you have, so be it. It isn't a combat weapon, but it is dangerous.

 

[Quark]

A wax slug???

If you find yourself having to shoot, you want to STOP the intruder in his tracks, not give him a bruised chest. Less than lethal ammo is a good way to get yourself and/or your family killed.

Just youtube wax slugs to see how they are made They are just bird shot held together with wax.
Shotgun Wax Slugs "Ballistics Gel" - YouTube

 

[Kayback]

Even at close range bird shot is not effective enough to ensure it is a fight stopper.

Will it ruin someone's day? Yes. But it may not take them out of the fight. You don't get to chose when the fight ends, only the attacker does, either by turning and running or by becoming noneffective to fight through blood loss or CNS disruption.

There are 3 basic responses to a threat, fight, flight or freeze. If you turn the tables on the attacker he is likely to do one of those three things. One is still press his attack. Having sprayed him down with bird shot may not have done anything besides made him attack more.

Wax slugs with bird shot are cute, in the same way Glaser Safety Slugs are cute. The idea is nice, but the terminal effect on a motivated, aggressive target may not be optimal.

While calibrated ballistic gelatine is useful for information gathering and some data can be correlated it is different from actually shooting someone with it.

KBK

 

[photoracer]

Personally, I bought my 15-22 for plinking. I don't know anything about the ballistics of a .22 round as far as it being effective against a home invader. I think there are a lot of things that factor into your question tho. Some things that came to my mind are:

- Can you safely secure your 15-22 and still allow quick access? For me, it's much easier for me to access and have my handgun ready vs. my 15-22.
- Since you mentioned you lived in a townhouse, are there a lot of tight spaces that would be difficult to maneuver in while holding the rifle?




I follow a similar philosophy with my .40 H&K USP (my primary home defense). The first 1/2 of the mag has FMJ rounds, if it's bad enough I go thru 1/2 a mag, then the hollow points will start flying. My thinking on this was minimizing collateral damage. If, heaven forbid, someone other than a criminal took one of those rounds, I think FMJ would do much less damage than the HPs.

Actually all the FMJ would do is p*** the guy off as they winged him and then went thru your neighbor's wall into their house.The military uses FMJ because of the Geneva Convention. In your case you do not want to fight fair. What you want is rounds that stay in the intruder and don't cause collateral damage, which FMJ will do for sure. Save those for the range. If you need to worry about penetration then get PD safety bullets (Glasers, Magsafes, or some kind of frangible bullet). And in a shotgun, especially a pump, only load the top of the mag at the back with one round of birdshot. That way you can pump it clear when you know the situation is deadly. Everything else should be either PD (like PDX) or buckshot rounds (I prefer 3" magnum #4B which is 41 pellets in the next 2 then some 00B after that). And practice. A shotgun will create a lot of flash and noise but you have to be prepared to shoot more than 1 round. I personally recommend firing 2 rounds with a shotgun and 3 with a pistol (CF) before you decide to see if he/they are still there. And make sure what you are shooting at also. Not the dog or your neighbor (unless they really are the bad guys). More practice.
I do not recommend a .22 rifle unless it is the only weapon you have to work with. If that is all you have prepare to shoot at least 5 and no more than 10 rounds with some accuracy. Did I mention practice? Practice is the only way to create the muscle memory you need in a stress situation. Get some lessons and practice.

 

[photoracer]

Shotguns require too much user input. It is too easy to mess up a shotgun under high stress. And any malfunction with one is a fight stopper.

If you are worried about noise, buy a suppressor. While out won't turn an AR.into indoor hearing safe it will moderate the noise. A 12 guage indoors isn't fun.

As a defence gun the 15-22 is questionable at best. While it can work the margins of error are not in its favour. It will be an investment equal to the 15-22 but a suppressed short barrel 5.56mm rifle loaded with frangible rounds is probably your best bet. Simple user interface, able to easily take a white light for target ID and a red dot optic. easy too use, easy to fix if it stops rapidly able to reload if you need to.

Of course getting one now may be difficult our expensive.

Forget about 50% of the garbage in this thread about not killing the bad guy. If you shoot someone you are employing lethal force. By the very act you are, by law, trying to kill them. Using anything that reduces this level of force is silly. If you aren't justified in killing them with your first shot you shouldn't be shooting at all. Any decent lawyer will be able to counter any problem questions about hollow point bullets or equipment by calling in experts. Remember it all hinges on you being correct in shooting in the first pace.

Get a rifle, get proper training with it. In the mean time if the 15-22 is all you have, so be it. It isn't a combat weapon, but it is dangerous.

Sorry but a shotgun is the BEST home defense firearm because you can throw out needing to be accurate. Every other firearm requires accuracy even in a corridor. Especially a pump that generally is more reliable than even the average pistol. 9 times out of 10 just racking the slide will scare the H*** out of a perp. A shotgun will eat up multiple targets, nothing else will unless they line up for you. And shotguns tend to be the least problem under stress. But everything requires practice. I don't like the idea of an AR because it gives the impression of overwhelming force, an "assault rifle", which in some juridictions can get you into trouble. But whatever you have needs to be the firearm you practice with. A .25 pop gun you shoot at the range is better than anything else that stays in the safe.

 

[gunnut165]

Everyone has given a lot of good information. But when it comes right down to it any firearm is better than no firearm. If someone breaks into to your home you have to protect yourself and your family, use what ever you have.

 

[Majorlk]

Just youtube wax slugs to see how they are made They are just bird shot held together with wax.
Shotgun Wax Slugs "Ballistics Gel" - YouTube

You can trust your life to such things if you want to. I choose to use things that will STOP the perp, not make them slow down.

In that same vein, I am not interested in "sending any message" except the perp is on the ground and no longer a threat to me or my family. If he dies in the process, that's HIS problem!

 

[Kayback]

Sorry but a shotgun is the BEST home defense firearm because you can throw out needing to be accurate. Every other firearm requires accuracy even in a corridor. Especially a pump that generally is more reliable than even the average pistol.

I beg to differ. At normal house sized ranges you are not going to be getting any spread out of most shotguns. Shotgun ammunition stays in a pretty tight wad inside of 10m. You may, MAY, get some errant spread, but the bulk of it will be in a nice tight group.

You most definitely still need to aim with one. Ask any clay pigeon shooter. You can't just point it and to break a clay all you need is one teeny little pellet to hit. To stop an attacker you need more than that. And your target isn't much bigger than a clay.

Inside most houses all weapons will need aiming, besides probably a flame thrower. You'll have to aim your shotgun just as much as a rifle. And if you miss with the shot, it is easier to get another on target with a rifle than the shotgun.

A shotgun, especially a pump, can suffer stoppages. The easiest one is just not pumping hard or far enough, something people often do under stress. This is easily rectified, but it isn't always obvious and a click when you need a bang can really mess up your OODA loop, meaning you are even worse off. Reloading can be just as bad. If you get the shell past the loader plate, but not into the tube you can lock up the gun in such a way tools are needed to get it running again.

I'd also like to see a study on the effects of a pump being racked. I've never wet myself when guys on the line do it. I'm willing to bet it is a Hollywood inspired thing like thimbing the hammer back on your pistol to tell someone you "really mean business!"

The only advantage shotguns have is they are cheap. You can pick one up for about what I'd suggest in spending on tax stamps to get a properly set up AR.

KBK

 

[Majorlk]

Noise from a shotgun being racked scaring away an intruder is Hollywood nonsense with little, if any, basis in fact.

 

[Beuford T. Rimfire]

9 to 12 pellets of 00 Buck (about the size as a 9mm bullet and traveling at about the same speed) hitting someone simultaneously seems more likely to stop someone than any pistol caliber.

 

[Beuford T. Rimfire]

Noise from a shotgun being racked scaring away an intruder is Hollywood nonsense with little, if any, basis in fact.

And you just gave away your position to the intruder AND informed them that you are armed thus taking away any element of surprise you may have had. Now your criminal is alerted to the idea that his safety is definately at stake and your chances of survival decreased. IMO.

 

[Majorlk]

9 to 12 pellets of 00 Buck (about the size as a 9mm bullet and traveling at about the same speed) hitting someone simultaneously seems more likely to stop someone than any pistol caliber.

If an intruder is wearing heavy clothing ANYTHING will be slowed down considerably, especially shotgun pellets.

Do what you want, I can put five rounds from my .40S&W on target faster that you can get the second round off from a pump shotgun, and that's over 800 grains - somewhat more than your 00 buck.

That said, all this has been hashed out at least a half dozen times on this forum already and NOTHING new is being said.

 

[JCKoLnturn]

Do what you want, I can put five rounds from my .40S&W on target faster that you can get the second round off from a pump shotgun, and that's over 800 grains - somewhat more than your 00 buck.

Uhm... No you can't.

 

[WU_Who]

Never head into a self defense situation with and empty chamber. The scare is pointing a massive bore at your assailant not making noise. Just how i was taught but to each their own.

 

[Majorlk]

Uhm... No you can't.

Maybe you can't but I can. Done it several times in training. Five rounds in under 1.5 seconds. The average shooter can't recover from 12 gauge recoil that fast.

 

[Beuford T. Rimfire]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCKoLnturn
Uhm... No you can't.

Maybe you can't but I can. Done it several times in training. Five rounds in 1.5 seconds. The average shooter can't recover from 12 gauge recoil that fast.

Nrrrrrrrr!!!! CAT FIGHT!!!!

Everyone's said their peace about what stops a criminal. Let's not make it personal!

(One thing I've learned over the years - NEVER tell a man from a town you can't pronounce what he CAN or CANNOT do.)

 

[BP_Z28]

I will just say this. A 15-22 for home defense will still be more reliable than these home items.

 

[sr3jan]

ROFL @BP_Z28

 

[Kayback]

Just to make my point again, these are #1 12 guage 15 pellet Federal loads.
This is a 7 yard target :

All the shot and the wad went in the same hole at 7 yards. This is the often talked about but probably mythical "typical engagement distance" in a self defense shooting.

This is the 25 yard shot with the same ammunition :

Pretty much all the pellets went in the same area, with the wad - the un-aerodynamic plastic petals that are not accurate at all - hitting the same target, albeit off to the left.

This is the same load with a different shotgun, on a different day, at 30 yards :

The wad is now missing and has veered off course. All 15 holes are there.

Explain to me again how you don't need to aim with a shotgun or how you can hit multiple people with them inside a house.....