15-22 as a home defense weapon?

[Scopes]

From what I understand, in some states, you could go to jail for this. Why? Because the intention should be to shoot to kill, not to maim. If you only intended to hurt or maim, then the threat of death upon you was not there and thus, you should not have fired just to stop and hurt. That method could backfire on you, no pun intended. If your going to pull the trigger, pull and aim with the intentions of killing, not hurting. You would have a hard time explaining your such a crappy shot you hit him in the nuts.

This is one of the most important posts here. From my police classes (in PA), if you truly feel your life is being threatened, you're going to have a hard time justifying that ankle shot to the DA. Check with your state's state police.

 

[SpicyTunaRoll]

You happen to remember what Hinckley did when he shot at Reagan? You remember the images of the folks incapacitated on the ground & near death? You remember no one got shot more than once?

This was with a low velocity 22lr revolver. Of course bigger is better, but still a few of those folks might disagree with you.

with such a small round, shot placement is key. i dont know where reagon was shot exactly, so i cant comment further.

but in reality, where were they gonna run too? reagan had his whole staff near him. he knew that he was safer simply dropping to the ground and being covered up by his bullet-sponges.

people forget that, they dont own guns to KILL bad people. they own guns to STOP bad people from doing whatever it is, that the bad people are doing. lethality is simply a bi-product of the wound that is created. so you want to find a happy medium between good incapacitation & coil/capacity/size/etc.

 

[stavman11]

After getting a 15-22p... i decided this would be a GREAT Home def weapon

I combined 2 mags together... this gives me 50rds..

Add a light to it... and it is Dialed... Small and easy to maneuver... No Sight even needed.....

The 15-22 too me seems a little cumbersome to me... My current HD is my XDM9 with a Tac Light on it

 

[RedNeck Jim]

with such a small round, shot placement is key. i dont know where reagon was shot exactly, so i cant comment further.

History ain't a bad thing, so you might want to read up on the assassination attempt.

Six 22lr bullets fired from the revolver. The 1st one hit James Brady in the head & dropped him. The Brady Act, obviously named for him, is where your background checks come from on firearm purchases. 2nd shot hit a police officer in the back of the neck. 3rd bullet missed & 4th hit a secret service agent in the stomach, dropping him, as he attempted to shield the President. The 5th & 6th hit the limo, with a ricochet of the 6th that hit Regan in the armpit... which almost killed him.

I'm not arguing which round or gun is better. Just saying any projectile flying at over 1000 feet per second can easily incapacitate.

 

[FFRacing]

The video starts off with a hand gun, but finishes off with a 10/22.

.22 LR Handgun for Self Defense? CCI Stinger Ammo Test - YouTube

 

[CrazyFingers]

I would never trust my life or the lives of my loved ones to a rimfire cartridge.
Your priorities may be different.

This horse is dead.

 

[NH Shooter]

Very true. Otherwise, like in England, a single-shot .22 may be our only choice of home defense weapon.

Would just like to point out... Were not limited to single shot .22

Any mag size in any type of .22 rifle. 22 Long barreled pistol is the same, shotgun max is 8 (but perhaps no box mags, I havent really checked), centrefire calibre is also any size mag... But were limited to straight pull or bolt action... No semi's.

The fastest centrefire we would have is maybe the straightpull or underlever. But the underleaver is limited to pistol calibres... largest being the .44 magnum.

That said... Were allowed an 8 shot, semi 12 gauge... So... Theres that...

 

[smokey0118]

wow...let's break this down

"A 5.56 AR will overpenetrate more than handguns or shotguns"

.223 Drywall Penetration: Results

click on the above link and read the test. While it is ammunition dependent, a 5.56/.223 can have excellent terminal effects AND limit overpenetration. A 5.56 is much more capable of doing damage to a person and quickly stopping a threat than a handgun and MUCH more capable than a .22LR...view the below...
AR-15 Tribute - YouTube
45ACP Speer 200gr +P Gold Dot impacting ballistic gelatin (slow motion) - YouTube
22LR CCI 40gr Velocitor PLHP impacting ballistic gelatin (42,000 frames/sec)! - YouTube

The faster/lighter .223/5.56 projectiles(especially ballistic tipped) break up pretty readily when going through walls and quickly shed energy. Handgun/shotgun projectiles aren't going fast enough to break apart and largely truck through MANY walls in a relatively straight line, with enough momentum on the other side to still adequately penetrate a person. In fact, most current handgun defensive loadings are made specifically so they will penetrate the fbi minimum 12" w/ expansion AFTER going through a wall.

Summary....WIN 5.56 in an AR


"Use birdshot for defense in a shotgun"
watch this....
Friends don't let Friends shoot Birdshot for HD - YouTube

and this...
Shotshell comparison Slow Motion - YouTube

...realize that 4-6" of penetration makes one nasty, but shallow wound. Most structures that cause a person to physiologically stop being a threat(bone structure, CNS, high-flow vasculature), are pretty deep towards the back of your thoracic cavity. In the case of the CNS, most of it is behind a large amount of bone structure. Your projectile has to make it through clothes, skin, adipose tissue, muscle, fluid, and then bone to reach really anything important(keep in mind most of your thoracic cavity is shielded by your rib-cage).

You're going to want a projectile that can penetrate somewhere close to 12" to get to that important stuff. In the case of a shotgun, it's going to be a #4 buckshot load or larger. I personally favor #1 buck as the best load for defense for a 12ga.

".22 is useless for defense"

Well no...it's been killing people for a long time now and can be quite effective. If it's between a .22 and fighting at close range with a handheld cutting or striking weapon, the .22 wins. Especially in a rifle, .22 can create a good bit of trauma and when combined with good shot placement, it can kill.

The issue is that compared to other cartridges, it creates MUCH less trauma. When you've got a .22 load just over 100 ftlb's of energy to do work compared to a 9/40/45 with around 400 ftlbs...it's easy to see the centerfire loads have the ability to create much more damage. bump up to .223 with 1,200 ftlbs or so and it's no contest which one is mo'betta. That extra energy is used to crush/tear/displace tissue that the .22 wont. It means you're going to do more damage and potentially stop the threat faster with similar shot placement.

In defense speed & shot placement is the name of the game. with similar shot placement, it will take a person much longer to stop being a threat with a .22 wound. It will likely also require many more shots sent their way to do enough damage to stop them. if I jump into hypothetical world right quick, a .223 may stop a threat with 2 hits on center mass. Before they can get to you, a .22 may require 10+ hits. Assume you're getting a pretty good rate of 15% shots on target...you're sending many more shots into the walls behind the threat with the .22 than you are with the much more effective .223. ....but a .22 still can stop a threat, it's just not as good as a centerfire loading for handguns or carbines.

People that would use .22's are ones that physically cannot handle larger calibers. Some senior citizens or people with grip-strength issues may be best served by a m&p22 pistol, because the slide is easy to manipulate and the recoil is extremely easy to control. If you're able to handle a more powerful cartridge, you should.

 

[Watchdog]

I'd also like to see a study on the effects of a pump being racked. I've never wet myself when guys on the line do it.

There's a big difference between being on the line (a fairly well controlled situation and hopefully not lethal for you) and being in an unfamiliar dark house at night and hearing the sound of a shell being racked into the chamber of a pump shotgun. So you're in the dark, trying not to trip over stuff you can't see, and all of a sudden you hear that sound but you can't see where it's coming from. Plus, in the dark, sounds can seem like they're coming from one place when they're really coming from another.

Now...you might not pee in your pants, but it's gonna startle you and make you hesitate, and maybe start thinking breaking into this house wasn't such a great idea after all.

My first line of defense? A 1951 Winchester Model 12 factory riot gun with a 20-inch cylinder bore barrel. After 62 years, the action is still smooth as silk. I've run about 150 rounds through it in the past month...a mixture of #4 Buckshot and 00-Buckshot...with not one jam or malfunction. And although I'm getting on up in years, myself, I don't have any problem getting it back on target while pumping it. Oh, and did I mention you can slam fire it?

Actually, my real first line of defense is the Rottweiler whose photograph I use as my icon on this forum. I have two of them, and they sleep where I sleep. No one is going to be near my house...day or night...without them letting me know about it. So by the time some punk's finished trying to kick my door in or come in through a window, I already know about it, and Old Faithful and I will be waiting.

 

[Vinney47]

People that would use .22's are ones that physically cannot handle larger calibers. Some senior citizens or people with grip-strength issues may be best served by a m&p22 pistol, because the slide is easy to manipulate and the recoil is extremely easy to control. If you're able to handle a more powerful cartridge, you should.

^This.

Just because the 15-22 looks assault rifleish doesn't change that it is firing a .22lr. Would we have this same conversation about a Mossberg 702 Plinkster? They also have factory 25rd mags, same as a 10/22. Just because it looks different doesn't make the 15-22 any better of a self defense/home defense weapon. (with the one caveat that it's better than no gun, or if the recoil of a larger caliber makes it so that you simply can't be accurate with anything else). Don't make the issue of a 15-22 for HD about how the gun looks.

 

[smokey0118]

There's a big difference between being on the line (a fairly well controlled situation and hopefully not lethal for you) and being in an unfamiliar dark house at night and hearing the sound of a shell being racked into the chamber of a pump shotgun. So you're in the dark, trying not to trip over stuff you can't see, and all of a sudden you hear that sound but you can't see where it's coming from. Plus, in the dark, sounds can seem like they're coming from one place when they're really coming from another.

Now...you might not pee in your pants, but it's gonna startle you and make you hesitate, and maybe start thinking breaking into this house wasn't such a great idea after all.

My first line of defense? A 1951 Winchester Model 12 factory riot gun with a 20-inch cylinder bore barrel. After 62 years, the action is still smooth as silk. I've run about 150 rounds through it in the past month...a mixture of #4 Buckshot and 00-Buckshot...with not one jam or malfunction. And although I'm getting on up in years, myself, I don't have any problem getting it back on target while pumping it. Oh, and did I mention you can slam fire it?

Actually, my real first line of defense is the Rottweiler whose photograph I use as my icon on this forum. I have two of them, and they sleep where I sleep. No one is going to be near my house...day or night...without them letting me know about it. So by the time some punk's finished trying to kick my door in or come in through a window, I already know about it, and Old Faithful and I will be waiting.

The main problem with the "sound of my kachunkachunk as a deterrent" plan is that it projects reason and logic on to the potentially unreasonable threat. It also assumes the threat will leave instead of engaging in a fight with you.

When someone enters your home while you are there, it should be understood that they are likely there for the sole purpose of hurting you or your family. Otherwise, why not just wait till you leave and come in then? Because of this, a home invasion is a force-on-force scenario. In such a scenario, you don't want to fight fair and you don't want to give your opponent any advantage over you. Do you think the home invader will shout out, "hey guys, I'm over here and I have a gun"? Probably not. He/she wouldn't likely want to give away his position and capability to fight. When you rack your shotgun at a threat, you're letting them know where you are and what you're armed with.

Will most people probably high-tail it out of there? Yeah. Again though, the threat is likely there to harm you, may not be rational, and may also be armed heavily. It is best to barricade yourself and your family behind a strong door at the position of advantage in the room, have 911 on the phone, and wait with your gun aimed at the entry to the room. If the threat breaks in, and after you've identified them as a threat, you've got the advantage over the threat and can respond with force.

The threat has to essentially clear your whole house...probably by themself or with a team that's not very good at room clearing. Their disadvantages are that they don't know where you are and they don't know the layout of your house. When they enter a room, they have to scan it in it's entirety to find where you are before finding you and attacking. Their only real advantage is knowing when they will enter a room.

You have the advantage if you stay put because you know the lay of the room and can position yourself to your benefit, and you know exactly where the threat is coming from(the door). Your disadvantage is you don't know when the threat is coming. If you're barricaded behind the locked door, the act of breaking in will let you know when the attack is coming and give you the last advantage you need to beat them easily. If you're racking your shotgun and yelling at them, you've given them the "where" piece to their puzzle. You've also given them the expectation that you're armed and have narrowed their choices in how they will respond to you ahead of time.

Of course the worst thing you can do, which will give up all your advantages except your knowledge of your home's layout is to go room-clearing to bring the fight to them. In that case, you're attempting to engage in a firefight with an unknown number of threats with an unknown fighting capability, hoping to find them and stop them before they can find you and stop you. You also limit your ability to plan where your shots go in a 3-d range with permeable walls when you have to respond to a threat from any direction.



if that's not good enough, i guess i could use a cutesy bumper-sticker saying like the "pump mahhh shawtgunn" crowd...

While the racking of a slide is a pretty good auditory deterrent, the *BOOM* is much more effective.


and here's our first line of defense. Stoney's a very well-trained guard dog.

 

[Jswiney9]

ZOMBIE THREAD................ seriously, with all the information on this site the resurrector found a .22 as home defense thread to bring back?

 

[Buckshot Barry]

"A 5.56 AR will overpenetrate more than handguns or shotguns"

.223 Drywall Penetration: Results

click on the above link and read the test. While it is ammunition dependent, a 5.56/.223 can have excellent terminal effects AND limit overpenetration. A 5.56 is much more capable of doing damage to a person and quickly stopping a threat than a handgun and MUCH more capable than a .22LR...view the below...

I quote that web page all the time, but just found that they have a followup test with different results. Very confusing. I have a LE6920 with Ranger 64 grain soft points in the bedroom.

Drywall Penetration Test 2

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

you have to understand the difference between "incapacitation" & "lethality". a pocket knife wound could prove lethal- but what is the rate of "incapacitation" with that stab wound, at the scene itself? very little if you ask me.

A guy by the name of Greg Ellifritz (impressive resume with firearms and instructor) collected data on self defense shootings rather than in a lab with gelatin. He measured incapacitation as the BG immediately stopping aggression after being shot.

A mix of .22LR, Long and Short came in around a 70% incapacitation rate with a little under two shots average.

Most of the centerfire pistol came in around 85% +/- with an average over 2 shots.

A lot of the above are psychological stops rather than a shot to the CNS or trauma making physical movement impossible.

Google -An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power. If nothing else, it's an interesting read.

 

[smokey0118]

I quote that web page all the time, but just found that they have a followup test with different results. Very confusing. I have a LE6920 with Ranger 64 grain soft points in the bedroom.

Drywall Penetration Test 2

Cool, thanks for the link. There's also the type of ammunition to consider. The lighter/faster polymer-tipped rounds seem to more readily shed energy in drywall...of course the tradeoff is a shallower wound cavity...much like 12 ga loads.

.223 NTX, V-Max and FMJ Home Defense and Gel Test - YouTube

 

[ruthless robbie]

Thinking about my new 15-22 as a home defense weapon. I live in a townhouse with residents on both sides so my 5.56 AR is too dangerous (penetrating walls). Not to mention the blast indoors on my ears, my wife's ears and our (soon to be born) son. Say you have a full mag & proper lights or a laser - could this be an option for fending off an intruder? Of course, if he's wearing body armor I'm screwed but hopefully nobody hates me that much.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

PS - I don't own a shotgun yet but I do have a .40 pistol among the other weapons mentioned above.

I have a 15-22 in the corner of my bedroom for home defense. I'm not worried about an intruder, just make sure you have reliable ammo such as CCI and always remember that if someone is worth shooting once, then they're worth shooting multiple times.

I know some people have said they wouldn't use a 22LR however they were comfortable with a shotgun with birdshot. This is contradicting and a double standard. Your chances of hitting a vital is slim to none with birdshot. Please google image shotgun birdshot wounds.

If I were to use a shotgun for home defense it would definitely be loaded with buckshot. I don't know about you but I can put 5 rounds of 22 in a tight group within 1.5 - 2 seconds. This would be equivalent to being shot in the chest with 1 round of buckshot in the same amount of time. Very similar bullet size and penetration. Actually 22LR hollowpoints like mini mags would be an overall larger diameter and possibly deeper penetration in which both gives you higher chance of hitting a vital and stopping the threat.

There have been millions of people killed with a 22LR so don't think with testosterone, think with intelligence. Do you guys realize how many people were killed in WW2 and the Vietnam war with 22LR?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncqIPpgSy50

 

[roadkill45]

After my 21 years in the Army, the only killing i do nowadays is coyotes, bobs, mnt lions, fox and biggest is bear...all considered predators.

my favorite fur friendly, meaning it will not cause a huge exit wound damaging the fur on bobcats and fox is the .22 magnum. Fur is selling at top dollar so you don't want to have to sew it too much!!

as for coyotes (no fur purchase) and mountain lions (if going for a rug) then my favorite round is Federal soft point, 55 grain. 90% goes in, turns everything to mush and rarely exits.

shotgun with 3" #4 is pretty much the standard for coyotes, lions but within 50 yards. I do not use it on bobs or fox since it is a fur killer.

another consideration with SG rounds is BB. very effective, but the same as #4 when it comes to pelt damage.

the reason i compare these animals to the human, although not equivalent, they do show what terminal ballistics there are after downed. I realize that they would be thin skinned compared to a large man with a coat, but the 5.56/.223 will take any of the above predators with ease, so with good shot placement it would make sense that it would be the best of the bunch when it comes to HD.

one man said that a handgun is used to get you to your rifle. like i said in the previous thread, a home invasion is over with in seconds. staying put with cover, phone on 911 and leave it on so it records everything, and weapon--whatever it is--leveled at the entrance ready to go. a light is a necessity since you don't want to have a family member come in and you not be able to identify.

i can grab my handgun faster than the FN Tactical Police Shotgun that sits sleeping in the corner with 10 rounds of 00, C-More sight, and WML. I suppose if i missed with 2 mags, that would be 32 rounds, i prolly don't deserve to own a gun!!

i don't think other than a Red Dawn scenario that i would ever use a long gun in a middle of the night break in...IMO just not enough time to react.

 

[IceStone]

My preferred home defense weapon is a can of black powder. Stick a fuse in it and light, then walk out the back door. Of course the house will be destroyed along with everything in it, but I got insurance.

 

[Vinney47]

My preferred home defense weapon is a can of black powder. Stick a fuse in it and light, then walk out the back door. Of course the house will be destroyed along with everything in it, but I got insurance.

not sure if you're serious here, but just in case you are.... that's pretty stupid. Insurance only covers it if someone else blows up your house.

 

[AJMBLAZER]

I actually presently have a Ruger 10/22 as a HD weapon. Why?

My shotgun is at the shop having ghost ring's fitted. I keep that loaded with six rounds of 12ga 2.75" buck. People can argue about whether buckshot pellets are effective or not but they've worked well for deer hunting and man hunting for centuries now. Not to mention they travel in packs. A fist sized group of 9-12 00 pellets or 20something #4 buck pellets will leave a hell of a wound on someone and they will penetrate since they are moving at 1200fps or better.

Now, as to the Ruger? I have it. I can shoot it well. It's the one gun that makes me look like I actually learned something on the range in the Marines. I can dump a 25 round mag into a bowling pin on a string or my steel gong at 50 yards or so and make the majority of them hits.
I load it with CCI Stinger Hollow Points because they are fast and expand well and reliably. The round is a high quality round that will work. I wouldn't use cheap bulk pack .22.
My Ruger is super reliable and it functions well. It's easy to operate and with the 50 round (two 25 round BX-25 mags) capacity I can put a lot of fast moving lead down range in an accurate and timely manner with minimal issue.

That said even it is backup to my .357 and her .38. Sometimes I have other handguns easily available as well. The shotgun or whatever else is in a "safe area" a determined bad guy(s) would have to work hard to get to. The pistols get me and mine to that safe area and hopefully prevent said bad guy(s) from getting to us.

I trust my life to my .22. I know it and I know it works. It's not the best choice but for now it works until my shotgun is back. I trust my AK too and if I didn't live in Suburbia where both of the neighbors houses are 6' away from ours I'd consider it. Even a 122gr soft point from it would likely blast through several houses even after passing through a bad guy.

Just was reminded of that WWII vet in Michigan who killed an intruder with a single shot from his .22LR rifle sometime about a year ago. He wasn't very ambulatory so he just sat down and waited and dropped the guy when he came through the door. .22 is lethal. It's not a fist sized group of buckshot pellets, a 230gr or 125gr hollow point, or M67 frag grenade but it is lethal. Plenty of people are dead because of it. If that's what you have then use it but make sure it works and you have quality ammunition.