1898 Krag Jorgensen Carbine

[Trooper224]

This was today's find at a local gunshow.

The reciever dates to 1904, to within about ten of the last ones produced. The stock cartouche dates to 1901. The upper handguard is an 1899 type, and the rear sight a type 1896. Everything is in great condition and it all looks aged together very well. There isn't even a single buggered up screw anywhere. There's also an oiler and cleaning rod in the butt. However, due to the mixmaster dates and the lack of a saddle ring on the stock, I'm leaning towards it being a faked up carbine. When I first saw it I thought perhaps it had been sporterized, but now I'm thinking fake.

At $500 dollars I'm fine with it either way. But, I'm far from a Krag expert. Anyone with more knowledge care to venture an opinion?

 

[Trooper224]

More pics

More pics.

 

[TJm15.38]

It certainly looks good and worth $500 easy. I'm not an expert either. What does the bore look like?

 

[4WHLDRFTN]

Looks to have been cut down "sporterised". The stock should have no hole for a cleaning rod in the front and 3 small holes under the butt door for the rods Front sight looks wrong ?

 

[Trooper224]

It certainly looks good and worth $500 easy. I'm not an expert either. What does the bore look like?

Bore's in excellent shape, like everything else.

 

[Trooper224]

Looks to have been cut down "sporterised". The stock should have no hole for a cleaning rod in the front and 3 small holes under the butt door for the rods Front sight looks wrong ?

The stock doesn't have a hole for a cleaning rod in the fore end. It does have the three hole cavity in the butt stock, with a rod and oiler present.

The front sight does look unusual.

 

[Glashaus]

Krags are great fun! I have owned a few US Krags and also a Norwegian Krag. I have two now, a 1896 rifle that was Sportorized years ago, possibly a Bannerman gun, the other a 1899 carbine that I got from a CMP auction. Your new Krag was cut down, or made into a carbine as many were in the 20's - 50's, front sight is a give away. But it was tastefully done and these days worth the $500 that you paid for it.

 

[4WHLDRFTN]

At $500 you didn't pay carbine price. It'll be a cool shooter.
He's some pics of mine, the rear sight should also have a C "carbine".

 

[Trooper224]

Thanks all.

I was thinking a faked up carbine. I don't know if I'd even call it fake. When it was done these rifles weren't worth anything, let alone worth faking up. Someone just wanted a carbine. But, it was well done. So, either way I didn't think I'd lose at $500.

It does give me a representative example for my collection, which is what I wanted.

 

[rockquarry]

Examine the bolt/ lugs very closely for cracks.

 

[erikpolcrack]

I always thought all Krags had the front sight base integral to the barrel. Yours seems to be a separate base added to the barrel. My NRA/Benicia carbine has a similar base. I believe the bases were from M1903 parts caches. In any case, it sure looks great and I'm sure it handles well. Great acquisition!

 

[30-30remchester]

I have Brophy"s book on the Krag rifles. I will look if you desire. Have owned a number of Krag's over the decades. My SWAG, is that it might be a cleanup piece from the remaining stockpile in the arsenal. Many manufactures did this. Colt used up the Alaskan model cylinders in SAA's. Winchester used 1895 barrels on the 1894's. Anything is possible with time and talent.

 

[Trooper224]

Examine the bolt/ lugs very closely for cracks.

Looks good under magnification.

 

[Trooper224]

I always thought all Krags had the front sight base integral to the barrel. Yours seems to be a separate base added to the barrel. My NRA/Benicia carbine has a similar base. I believe the bases were from M1903 parts caches. In any case, it sure looks great and I'm sure it handles well. Great acquisition!

Since you mentioned the NRA.........

During the 20s, the NRA converted a lot of these to carbines and sold them to the public. Given the quality of the work, I'd say that's a possibility. The quality exceeds any of the various Bannerman rifles I've seen over the years. Unfortunately, they didn't mark them in any way so there's no way to be sure. Your comment on the sight makes that intriguing.

 

[Trooper224]

I have Brophy"s book on the Krag rifles. I will look if you desire. Have owned a number of Krag's over the decades. My SWAG, is that it might be a cleanup piece from the remaining stockpile in the arsenal. Many manufactures did this. Colt used up the Alaskan model cylinders in SAA's. Winchester used 1895 barrels on the 1894's. Anything is possible with time and talent.

I don't have Brophy's book yet, so any effort you'd make would be appreciated.

 

[LVSteve]

Front sight on a band screams cut down rifle to me. Poking about the web suggests that a bunch of these were done by the NRA when Uncle Sam wanted to get rid of the Krags in store. This is a bit like carbines produced in the Eastern Bloc by cutting down Mosin M91 and M91/30 rifles.

 

[30-30remchester]

I went through every page and examined every photo in the Brophy book and can find no such front sight on any rifle or carbine. Not all carbines had saddle-sling ring attachments. In fact, from a quick glance, most model carbines did not. Again, according to Brophy, the DCM modified Krag rifles for sale to members. The following is a quote from page #184 about these arms. "Model 1898 Krag rifles sold to the Nation Rifle Association members through the Director of Civil Marksmanship. The barrel has been expertly reduced in length to 22 inches and the front sight of Model 1903 rifle has been installed. Only Model 1899 carbine stocks. Model 1901 rear sights and hand-guards, and carbine stock fittings were used. Cut-down rifle stocks were not used on DCM Krags".

 

[Rudi]

They sure are well made. Nice carbine.

 

[cololab]

The front sight base on military issued carbines was an integral part of the barrel. The front sight band on your barrel is indicative of a cut down barrel or something done outside of military armorer channels,

 

[Trooper224]

I have Brophy's book on the way.

But, utilizing my Google fu I believe I've found the likely scenario.

In the 20s, the NRA couldn't give Krag rifles away. Like now, most wanted a carbine. The NRA contracted Benicia Arsenal, out of the California town of the same name, to turn out carbines from rifles and various surplus parts, to be sold through the DCM. The good news on my rifle is, nothing has been cut on except the barrel.

The reciever is dated to 1904. The serial number puts it six away from the last known fully assembled rifle. The stock is an unaltered 1899 carbine stock, dated 1901. This accounts for the lack of a saddle ring, or sling swivels. The handguard and rear sight are carbine models of 1896. The barrel is either a shortened Krag or 1903 barrel. I haven't disassembled to look for any proof marks. I don't know if i will. The front sight appears to be a modified 1903 sight. The muzzle crown is flat and the barrel is the standard 22 inches.

It seems to have been put together with a bit more care than most Bannerman rifles I've seen, so I'm guessing the Benicia provenance is likely. These weren't marked in any way to denote their origin, so it's impossible to say for sure. But, given the totality of the evidence I think it's likely.

Any way around it, I think I more than got my money's worth.

 

[444 Magnum]

I have the Joe Poyer book on the Krag rifles. The muzzle diameter of an 1898 carbine should be 0.635". That's one way to indentify a cut down barrel.

The American Krag Rifle and Carbine by Joe Poyer --full of all the specifications.

The only thing wrong with a carbine is that you can't hang a bowie bayonet on it...

 

[30-30remchester]

I have the Joe Poyer book on the Krag rifles. The muzzle diameter of an 1898 carbine should be 0.635". That's one way to indentify a cut down barrel.

The American Krag Rifle and Carbine by Joe Poyer --full of all the specifications.

The only thing wrong with a carbine is that you can't hang a bowie bayonet on it...

Y

You should send me that shabby old frog sticker if you aren't going to take better care of it. I have been a collector of antique knives and US military items for decades. I have owned about everything. The Krag bowie is one that has always eluded me.

 

[Trooper224]

I removed the handguard, thinking I might find some barrel markings that could give a hint at it's origin. If it had been put together by Sedgley, for example, there'd be an S within a circle stamped on the barrel. Sadly, the barrel's perfectly clean.

Further study shows the stock and handguard are Model 1899 parts, late manufacture replacement parts made for overhauling older carbines. The handguard is designed to fit the 1896 rear sight, which this is. It's a rifle rather than a carbine sight on this one.

This goes against my earlier feeling of an NRA, Benicia produced rifle as supposedly they were all built using 1901 pattern rear sights. It looks like someone just did a nice job of putting a carbine together.

 

[444 Magnum]

You should send me that shabby old frog sticker if you aren't going to take better care of it. I have been a collector of antique knives and US military items for decades. I have owned about everything. The Krag bowie is one that has always eluded me.

I have three of them. I don't know why, but I always seem to buy multiples and then I'm on to the next thing.

They pop up occasionally. Only 2800 made, not sure how many survived. There's one on fleabay right now.

 

[LVSteve]

Further study shows the stock and handguard are Model 1899 parts, late manufacture replacement parts made for overhauling older carbines. The handguard is designed to fit the 1896 rear sight, which this is. It's a rifle rather than a carbine sight on this one.

I thought it was a proper carbine stock as the band is secured with a spring. A band secured by a screw is another indication of a cut down rifle, as is a lack of finger grooves. According to this website, none of the US built Krag rifles had finger groove stocks.

A Quick and Dirty Guide: Military Krag-Jorgensen Rifles – Surplused

 

[Trooper224]

Another historical tidbit:

When these things were cut down, it was common practice to mount an M1903 front sight. This front sight was interesting to me, because it was like an '03 front sight but not. Some research showed this to be a commercial Stokes Kirk front sight. There's a hole in the rear face, that must have mounted an ivory or gold bead at one time.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The 30-40 Krag is a lot of fun to shoot, but

if you reload ammo for it, don't go past the old maximum pressures
with just the ONE locking lug, that it uses, back in it's day.

I had good luck with 4064, 4350 & 4831 for extra light loads with a 150 gr SP and 180 JRN bullet, at my range.

 

[erikpolcrack]

Another historical tidbit:

When these things were cut down, it was common practice to mount an M1903 front sight. This front sight was interesting to me, because it was like an '03 front sight but not. Some research showed this to be a commercial Stokes Kirk front sight. There's a hole in the rear face, that must have mounted an ivory or gold bead at one time.

I've had Redfield and Lyman front sight blades like that over the years. They are really great with an M1903 you've sporterized with a receiver sight.

 

[Trooper224]

The history behind these things is the real draw for me, and I think I've nailed it down for this rifle.

W. Stokes Kirk was a purveyor of Army Navy Surplus is the early 20th century. This rifle matches the catalog description of their No. 399 Rifle.

 

[Ameshawki]

Cut down rifle for sure. The front sight is a dead giveaway. In the 20's it was very common to cut these down and graft an 03 sight on. I'd guess they are more cut down fakes on the market than real deal carbines. But for $500 you did fine. I'd have probably paid that if I saw it.